US Police Shoot Unarmed Man With His Hands Up

[SilverSpur]

Stills from the video appears to show his right trouser leg half way up his shin, as if caught on the ankle holster the police say he was wearing. Almost every photo shows his right trouser leg unusually high up his leg, I believe this is because he's removed a weapon from its holster and has it in his hand. Take another look at these photos, Obviously they are low quality but I think its going to be one of the important facts of the case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805866/Ch...

So if you saw a suspect, with an apparently empty ankle holster showing, and you cant see if his hands are empty because he's holding them down by his side instead of in the air like instructed, and he's not doing as he's instructed....

[rscott]

SilverSpur said:

Stills from the video appears to show his right trouser leg half way up his shin, as if caught on the ankle holster the police say he was wearing. Almost every photo shows his right trouser leg unusually high up his leg, I believe this is because he's removed a weapon from its holster and has it in his hand. Take another look at these photos, Obviously they are low quality but I think its going to be one of the important facts of the case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805866/Ch...

So if you saw a suspect, with an apparently empty ankle holster showing, and you cant see if his hands are empty because he's holding them down by his side instead of in the air like instructed, and he's not doing as he's instructed....

Or the gun was still in the car - we simply don't know. The only evidence we have from the grainy images is that a gun wasn't being pointed at any officers. Whether it was in the car, his hand, the holster isn't clear from the footage.

I've still not seen any explanation why they didn't attempt a tazer first?

[SilverSpur]

rscott said:

SilverSpur said:

Stills from the video appears to show his right trouser leg half way up his shin, as if caught on the ankle holster the police say he was wearing. Almost every photo shows his right trouser leg unusually high up his leg, I believe this is because he's removed a weapon from its holster and has it in his hand. Take another look at these photos, Obviously they are low quality but I think its going to be one of the important facts of the case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805866/Ch...

So if you saw a suspect, with an apparently empty ankle holster showing, and you cant see if his hands are empty because he's holding them down by his side instead of in the air like instructed, and he's not doing as he's instructed....

Or the gun was still in the car - we simply don't know. The only evidence we have from the grainy images is that a gun wasn't being pointed at any officers. Whether it was in the car, his hand, the holster isn't clear from the footage.

I've still not seen any explanation why they didn't attempt a tazer first?

I'm not defending the shooting, just suggesting that the police had a better, clearer picture than those offered us by the video images.... it could well be that he had the gun in his hand as we cant see that from the video, and if he does, and is refusing to do as instructed, then the police will say that by not doing as instructed he's given them cause to shoot. But I don't say that I agree with this.

Certainly they seemed to open fire without proper cause to.

I also don't think switching to a tazor device once you have a fire-arm drawn is in any operating procedure the police there would follow. Especially if they've identified the now empty ankle holster.

[SilverSpur]

There is also a still from his wifes video that appears to show a small handgun on the floor near the body as the police approach him.

[BertieWooster]

SilverSpur said:

There is also a still from his wifes video that appears to show a small handgun on the floor near the body as the police approach him.

Sky News has posted a photo of a pistol that the police say was Mr Scott's possession. From looking at the image it appears the hammer is back so it was ready to fire.



Sky News article

[rscott]

BertieWooster said:

Sky News has posted a photo of a pistol that the police say was Mr Scott's possession. From looking at the image it appears the hammer is back so it was ready to fire.



Sky News article

Not a gun expert, but wouldn't it be not uncommon to carry the gun cocked with the safety on?

[MrBrightSi]

ZX10R NIN said:

I want to get all the facts on the latest shooting but tell me what's right with these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyQtvv_1i8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2H3NuHT9DM

To give you an idea of how the complete system works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hCVFz-0tYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rifzISiAy8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILo1KIg80Ck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LMaXQC9qtE

I can't believe you buy into the young turks propaganda.

Their racist bullst makes me cringe.

[Mike_Mac]

rscott said:

BertieWooster said:

Sky News has posted a photo of a pistol that the police say was Mr Scott's possession. From looking at the image it appears the hammer is back so it was ready to fire.



Sky News article

Not a gun expert, but wouldn't it be not uncommon to carry the gun cocked with the safety on?

No! The normal state for any weapon is not for it to be cocked, unless you've already fired, or have just cocked it prior to firing, regardless of safety catch state.

ETA - just checked and, unlike what I was taught (different environment and not in the US admittedly) in the US it is considered OK by many to have a pistol cocked and locked, which did surprise me a bit!

The drills I was taught were always make ready (cock) on drawing, and to return to a loaded, but not made ready (un-cocked), state before re-holstering (dependant on circumstances and whether you expected to have to fire again any time soon).

Edited by Mike_Mac on Monday 26th September 18:01

[AntiLagGC8]

Mike_Mac said:

rscott said:

BertieWooster said:

Sky News has posted a photo of a pistol that the police say was Mr Scott's possession. From looking at the image it appears the hammer is back so it was ready to fire.



Sky News article

Not a gun expert, but wouldn't it be not uncommon to carry the gun cocked with the safety on?

No! The normal state for any weapon is not for it to be cocked, unless you've already fired, or have just cocked it prior to firing, regardless of safety catch state.

ETA - just checked and, unlike what I was taught (different environment and not in the US admittedly) in the US it is considered OK by many to have a pistol cocked and locked, which did surprise me a bit!

The drills I was taught were always make ready (cock) on drawing, and to return to a loaded, but not made ready (un-cocked), state before re-holstering (dependant on circumstances and whether you expected to have to fire again any time soon).

Edited by Mike_Mac on Monday 26th September 18:01

Are you ex-military? I am and was always trained to do the the same thing. It wasn't acceptable to have the weapon made ready if you weren't intending to use the weapon almost immediately.

[SilverSpur]

AntiLagGC8 said:

Mike_Mac said:

rscott said:

BertieWooster said:

Sky News has posted a photo of a pistol that the police say was Mr Scott's possession. From looking at the image it appears the hammer is back so it was ready to fire.



Sky News article

Not a gun expert, but wouldn't it be not uncommon to carry the gun cocked with the safety on?

No! The normal state for any weapon is not for it to be cocked, unless you've already fired, or have just cocked it prior to firing, regardless of safety catch state.

ETA - just checked and, unlike what I was taught (different environment and not in the US admittedly) in the US it is considered OK by many to have a pistol cocked and locked, which did surprise me a bit!

The drills I was taught were always make ready (cock) on drawing, and to return to a loaded, but not made ready (un-cocked), state before re-holstering (dependant on circumstances and whether you expected to have to fire again any time soon).

Edited by Mike_Mac on Monday 26th September 18:01

Are you ex-military? I am and was always trained to do the the same thing. It wasn't acceptable to have the weapon made ready if you weren't intending to use the weapon almost immediately.

That's to stop you shooting yourself or colleagues accidentally. However, if you are a criminal you want it to fire straight away with the least resistance on being drawn from wherever you have it stashed. It's also a way of having one more round in an automatic than you normally would on a 'safe' gun. Full mag and one already in the chamber.

[Matt Harper]

SilverSpur said:

That's to stop you shooting yourself or colleagues accidentally. However, if you are a criminal you want it to fire straight away with the least resistance on being drawn from wherever you have it stashed. It's also a way of having one more round in an automatic than you normally would on a 'safe' gun. Full mag and one already in the chamber.

I concealed carry with my gun in battery all the time (as trained by my local law enforcement agency) and I'm most certainly not a criminal.

From what I've read about this case, he had the gun in hand, not holstered, while he was in the car and he'd pointed it at law enforcement while he was still in the car. If that is indeed the case, I'm very surprised that it took the cops all that time and bargaining with him before they shot him.

Edited by Matt Harper on Monday 26th September 21:00

[ZX10R NIN]

MrBrightSi said:

I can't believe you buy into the young turks propaganda.

Their racist bullst makes me cringe.

I watch all different types of media listen to the facts as they're presented & make up my own mind.

[MrBrightSi]

ZX10R NIN said:

MrBrightSi said:

I can't believe you buy into the young turks propaganda.

Their racist bullst makes me cringe.

I watch all different types of media listen to the facts as they're presented & make up my own mind.

If you're buying into it enough to share it, i think you're not making the best decisions here. They're some Qatari Al Jazeera funded gaggle of tts. This is a youtube channel that correlated jokes about a gorilla that got shot to racism.

[ZX10R NIN]

I can show the CNN clips I watched to but then you'd probably tell me they're wrong to, at the end of the day I'll have my opinion you'll have yours.

Do I think TYT get it right all the time? No
But are they more balanced than Fox/CNBC? Yes

It's all slanted depending on who you watch because everyone has an agenda.

[anonymous-user]

ZX10R NIN said:

La Liga said:

S officers often shoot more people dead in a month than UK officers have shot dead in the last 30 years.

The risk levels are totally different. I have little to no expectation to face a firearm.

If BLM want to reduce black deaths then they need to look at their own communities given the grossly disproportionate amount of firearms murders within their community.

The number of black people killed by another black person is at 89%

The number of white people killed by another white person is at 83%

The number of white people that smoke pot is the same as the number of black people but the black person is 4 times more likely to be arrested.

Also the number of crimes are also economic, also if you get the chance to watch the film Kill The Messenger I'd say do so as it will also show how the CIA introduced Crack to America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nPyf-0UMc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tG1iMrG09s

No doubt there are equality and other issues to consider, but that doesn't detract from my point that the black community grossly disproportionately kill one another with firearms and that if BLM wish to reduce black deaths then they'd be better channelling their energy towards reducing those deaths.

[Mike_Mac]

AntiLagGC8 said:

Are you ex-military? I am and was always trained to do the the same thing. It wasn't acceptable to have the weapon made ready if you weren't intending to use the weapon almost immediately.

Ex?!?! Cheeky Bugger - still current, but I haven't properly carried/used/shot a pistol for a few years (staff job! ), so did have to have a think to make sure I was remembering it right.

SilverSpur said:

That's to stop you shooting yourself or colleagues accidentally. However, if you are a criminal you want it to fire straight away with the least resistance on being drawn from wherever you have it stashed. It's also a way of having one more round in an automatic than you normally would on a 'safe' gun. Full mag and one already in the chamber.

Exactly! Although as MattH says, it is done in the US. However, if what they are saying is true in this case regarding him actually having it in his hand (still no actual proof though) then my sympathies are far more with the Police in this case.

Plus, those saying, why no Taser etc? You don't fk about when someone has a gun. It may be pointed at the ground, but that can change in well under a second. Might as well say 'why not wound him in the arm, or shoot the gun out of his hand' - not realistic in the slightest.

I've encountered the Police in the US before, and had a gun pulled on me. Believe me, you obey every single instruction slowly and accurately - especially those such as 'put your hands up'!

[SilverSpur]

Matt Harper said:

SilverSpur said:

That's to stop you shooting yourself or colleagues accidentally. However, if you are a criminal you want it to fire straight away with the least resistance on being drawn from wherever you have it stashed. It's also a way of having one more round in an automatic than you normally would on a 'safe' gun. Full mag and one already in the chamber.

I concealed carry with my gun in battery all the time (as trained by my local law enforcement agency) and I'm most certainly not a criminal.

Edited by Matt Harper on Monday 26th September 21:00

I didn't call you a criminal my friend, or infer such. Just because you may also do this, doesn't make you a criminal by any association. However if you were a criminal, you'd be more inclined to carry your weapon in this 'ready to fire' mode.

[lawless50]

Mike_Mac said:

I've encountered the Police in the US before, and had a gun pulled on me.
Believe me, you obey every single instruction slowly and accurately - especially those such as 'put your hands up'!

How would that help black people who get shot anyway?

Every time the police shoot someone who is complying, who is lying down with their hands up, who is an unarmed kid with a bag of groceries, they make the next encounter more dangerous than it needs to be. You know what runs through innocent black peoples subconscious when they get pulled over or stopped by the police? This could be it, this could be the day I die.

Even in the UK, where the police don't carry guns (usually) and it's "safe" (mostly), what will I be thinking of the next time I get pulled over "at random" in London? I'm thinking of that psycho cutting through a windscreen with a pocket knife (give him a mask, add some danger music and you have a horror movie).

Yes, I know Police=Racist isn't fair. Just the same as Muslim=Terrorist and Black=Criminal isn't fair.

[ZX10R NIN]

I don't think all police are racist, I do believe the training they receive has made them more trigger happy, which when you have them targeting poorer/minority neighbourhoods (in order to meet ticket quotas etc) you have a situation where the people they're targeting are pissed off & sick of the bullst behavior which makes them less willing to listen (& it's not always the case that the person isn't complying with the instructions) to the police.

This isn't a reason to kill a person an armed man had a shoot out with the police shooting three of them & still stayed alive now the police were more than within their rights to kill him but they wanted him alive so he lived, now if that kind of treatment could be rolled out to all police forces we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[techguyone]

I find the wifes video particularly telling.

She's spending the best part of an entire minute telling Keith not to do it, regardless of how that can be interpreted, it's fairly clear at the very least that Keith was not following police direction, perhaps if he had, he wouldn't now be full of holes.

I'm fairly sure if I was facing several police officers all pointing pistols at me, I wouldn't be doing diddly to make them feel nervous.