Terrorism - how will this all end?
Discussion
I have 2 young nieces who I worry about.
I'll be dead in the next 20 years but the coming conflict between liberal Western values and backward religious dogma is a cause of concern to me, I don't predict a Third World war or anything so dramatic but there will be a tectonic type grinding of one set of values against another, it's unavoidable.
I take my comfort from the fact that there are at least 500 million people on the planet today who really don't give a s
t about infantile religious values. There may be billions who still subscribe to these absurdities but as a percentage of the population the thinkers are gradually increasing.
And most importantly, the people who step out of the tramlines are the people making the advancements that the backward half heads are benefiting from.
There's a storm coming no doubt. Science will win though, or the prize isn't worth bothering with.
I'll be dead in the next 20 years but the coming conflict between liberal Western values and backward religious dogma is a cause of concern to me, I don't predict a Third World war or anything so dramatic but there will be a tectonic type grinding of one set of values against another, it's unavoidable.
I take my comfort from the fact that there are at least 500 million people on the planet today who really don't give a s
t about infantile religious values. There may be billions who still subscribe to these absurdities but as a percentage of the population the thinkers are gradually increasing. And most importantly, the people who step out of the tramlines are the people making the advancements that the backward half heads are benefiting from.
There's a storm coming no doubt. Science will win though, or the prize isn't worth bothering with.
jjlynn27 said:
BigLion said:
jjlynn27 said:
BigLion said:
Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.
As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!
How do you 'plan' for population growth? Hand out more condoms to certain parts of society? Build the wall?As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!
I suspect in your wild outrage you have probably confused planning for population growth as being some form of population control.
Btw if you want to control population just look at the policies that have / are being deployed in China, Japan and India. I'm not interested in debating the nature of their polices, but just want to help educate you.
Lets step back, I was laughing at the statement of someone as frightened as you about what'll happen in 50 to 70 years. It wasn't about population growth, it was about population growth of certain segments of society.
The point, and even you can understand, was that I not sure why should anyone particularly care if one set of people that believe in deity, outnumbers other group of people that believe in other deity in 50 - 70 years time. As for population growth predictions;
Sylvaforever said:
Greg66 said:
BigLion said:
With yet another likely terrorist attack
Except it wasn't. You think those people would feel even more upset if they were told it wasn't a terrorist but a right wing nutter? Or that they'd feel better if they were told it was a terrorist? In fact, what is the facile point you're trying to make this time?
And yes, we all get that you don't like Muslims. You can take that as read.
GoodOlBoy said:
Digga said:
Not all Islam us evil, no. Not all Muslims want to change society into a caliphate, but there are some fundamental nodes of conflict between large parts of Islam and liberal, Western culture:
- Gender equality
- Sexual equality
- Alcohol
- Dress (or lack of)
All of the above are sticking points; the West will not yield on these. Moving forward, Islam has to deal with this. It cannot expect pockets of Sharia to shield it from core, basic human rights, if it wants not just to exist, but to integrate with the West. It has to change.
Surely the point is that Islamic values make integration difficult if not impossible. Islam can't change in the same way as Christianity has.- Gender equality
- Sexual equality
- Alcohol
- Dress (or lack of)
All of the above are sticking points; the West will not yield on these. Moving forward, Islam has to deal with this. It cannot expect pockets of Sharia to shield it from core, basic human rights, if it wants not just to exist, but to integrate with the West. It has to change.
Hence the large Muslim-only population centres that are steadily increasing in size in the UK and Europe.
rscott said:
Some are not unique to Muslims though - alcohol is banned by other religions too (Sikhs & Mormons, for example).
Sharia law obviously shouldn't replace or override British laws, but parts of it aren't incompatible, just as parts of the Jewish courts can operate within our laws.
The key is to work with all these faiths to ensure that if any religious courts exist, they do so in an open and public manner which is compatible with existing laws.
Wow !Sharia law obviously shouldn't replace or override British laws, but parts of it aren't incompatible, just as parts of the Jewish courts can operate within our laws.
The key is to work with all these faiths to ensure that if any religious courts exist, they do so in an open and public manner which is compatible with existing laws.
So some Muslims carry out terror attacks as they don't like the west and want Islam to dominate, and we give in to them by allowing aspects of sharia law to work alongside our own laws ? Is that not giving in to their threats, if we turned into a full Islamic state that would show them !!!
What parts would you allow ? We are again saying you can practise your faith but not chapters 2,4 or 7 as we don't like them ?
You can't compromise here, Islam is the word and instruction of God. It is either in or out.
del mar said:
rscott said:
Some are not unique to Muslims though - alcohol is banned by other religions too (Sikhs & Mormons, for example).
Sharia law obviously shouldn't replace or override British laws, but parts of it aren't incompatible, just as parts of the Jewish courts can operate within our laws.
The key is to work with all these faiths to ensure that if any religious courts exist, they do so in an open and public manner which is compatible with existing laws.
Wow !Sharia law obviously shouldn't replace or override British laws, but parts of it aren't incompatible, just as parts of the Jewish courts can operate within our laws.
The key is to work with all these faiths to ensure that if any religious courts exist, they do so in an open and public manner which is compatible with existing laws.
So some Muslims carry out terror attacks as they don't like the west and want Islam to dominate, and we give in to them by allowing aspects of sharia law to work alongside our own laws ? Is that not giving in to their threats, if we turned into a full Islamic state that would show them !!!
What parts would you allow ? We are again saying you can practise your faith but not chapters 2,4 or 7 as we don't like them ?
You can't compromise here, Islam is the word and instruction of God. It is either in or out.
You want to stop the many Muslims who want to peacefully co-exist within western countries from following any rules which govern their faith?
Read my post again - I see no issues with allowing the parts of Sharia law which are compatible with our EXISTING legal system. I've not suggested changing anything to accommodate Sharia, only not setting out to ban it completely as some who don't appear to understand it want to do.
I dont give a fig about any religious rules or guidelines etc. too many hide behind them and twist the words to suit their aims and wants... Its the way it has always been.
However If these rules are in alignment with modern laws then thats fine. if it goes against the flow then no. The law of the land is what counts. The law of the land that we all follow and adhere to.
So they drive on the right in their country of origin, but yet here they will drive to the left to fit in with the law of the land. So many other laws you fit in with us, if thats too much then please take yourself back home.
let it become complicated then you make a rod for your own back - it was difficult enough getting these laws to statue.
However If these rules are in alignment with modern laws then thats fine. if it goes against the flow then no. The law of the land is what counts. The law of the land that we all follow and adhere to.
So they drive on the right in their country of origin, but yet here they will drive to the left to fit in with the law of the land. So many other laws you fit in with us, if thats too much then please take yourself back home.
let it become complicated then you make a rod for your own back - it was difficult enough getting these laws to statue.
rscott said:
Sharia law covers many aspects of Islam - from how and when to worship, through financial matters to inheritance, marriage ,divorce, etc. Much of it is no different in scope to Canon Law which governs how Christian churches operate and their members are expected to behave.
You want to stop the many Muslims who want to peacefully co-exist within western countries from following any rules which govern their faith?
Read my post again - I see no issues with allowing the parts of Sharia law which are compatible with our EXISTING legal system. I've not suggested changing anything to accommodate Sharia, only not setting out to ban it completely as some who don't appear to understand it want to do.
You are obviously as sad as me and have nothing else to do on a Sunday !!
You can't pick and choose which aspects of a faith we are happy to allow. It comes back to chapter 2,4 and 7.
As a Muslim individual you would have no idea of the value of the sharia court - it is only allowed to legislate on some things but not others ? The things we like might not be the things that are of value to them. Those in charge of the court would forever be falling foul of the Law as they can't give an opinion / answer on chapter 4. How long would it be before chapter 4 is snuck in to what they can rule on and if they don't get chapter 7 they will be out on the streets complaining.
They can practise their faith as long as it falls within our legal and social "rules" for want of a better word.
However we already have sharia courts as I imagine France and Belgium do and that has hardly helped. We have given them an inch, and a small proportion have turned that into a foot, as we are in such a mess we are saying make that foot legal then, again a small proportion will take two foot.
I think digga mentioned it earlier- until they buy into rights and equality giving them any legal framework is a poor idea.
Inheritance and marraige - English women died to get women the vote and we are allowing a religion and legal framework that places women as second class citizens without the same equality- Emily Pankhurst would be turning in her grave.
As all pistonheads should be doing on a sunny weekend I am off for a drive and then a good polish - ironically with the muslim guy next door - although he is a muslim in the very loosest sense.
You want to stop the many Muslims who want to peacefully co-exist within western countries from following any rules which govern their faith?
Read my post again - I see no issues with allowing the parts of Sharia law which are compatible with our EXISTING legal system. I've not suggested changing anything to accommodate Sharia, only not setting out to ban it completely as some who don't appear to understand it want to do.
You are obviously as sad as me and have nothing else to do on a Sunday !!
You can't pick and choose which aspects of a faith we are happy to allow. It comes back to chapter 2,4 and 7.
As a Muslim individual you would have no idea of the value of the sharia court - it is only allowed to legislate on some things but not others ? The things we like might not be the things that are of value to them. Those in charge of the court would forever be falling foul of the Law as they can't give an opinion / answer on chapter 4. How long would it be before chapter 4 is snuck in to what they can rule on and if they don't get chapter 7 they will be out on the streets complaining.
They can practise their faith as long as it falls within our legal and social "rules" for want of a better word.
However we already have sharia courts as I imagine France and Belgium do and that has hardly helped. We have given them an inch, and a small proportion have turned that into a foot, as we are in such a mess we are saying make that foot legal then, again a small proportion will take two foot.
I think digga mentioned it earlier- until they buy into rights and equality giving them any legal framework is a poor idea.
Inheritance and marraige - English women died to get women the vote and we are allowing a religion and legal framework that places women as second class citizens without the same equality- Emily Pankhurst would be turning in her grave.
As all pistonheads should be doing on a sunny weekend I am off for a drive and then a good polish - ironically with the muslim guy next door - although he is a muslim in the very loosest sense.
BigLion said:
With yet another likely terrorist attack it feels like these are happening daily.
They're not, you're just being sucked in by the media/political hype
What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?
There is no end game. WW1 was ostensibly started by a terrorist organisation, not much has changed since.
Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?
Define "the West"
They're not, you're just being sucked in by the media/political hype
What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?
There is no end game. WW1 was ostensibly started by a terrorist organisation, not much has changed since.
Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?
Define "the West"
del mar said:
You can't compromise here, Islam is the word and instruction of God. It is either in or out.
del mar said:
As all pistonheads should be doing on a sunny weekend I am off for a drive and then a good polish - ironically with the muslim guy next door - although he is a muslim in the very loosest sense.
fesuvious said:
rscott said:
Read my post again - I see no issues with allowing the parts of Sharia law which are compatible with our EXISTING legal system. I've not suggested changing anything to accommodate Sharia, only not setting out to ban it completely as some who don't appear to understand it want to do.
Islam / Shariah decrees very very clearly that there must be NO MAN MADE LAWS.Please advise as to how you would like any part of a system that refuses to accept any man made law whatsoever to integrate with our existing (man made) system.
rscott said:
Maybe you could ask any of the Muslims who've been happily living in the Uk for many decades? They seem to find a practical compromise.
It's clear where your loyalties lay. Perhaps you should visit the heavily populated Muslim areas of the UK to see this alleged "compromise" with your own eyes. You will quickly see that you've been talking st as there is absolutely no evidence of any "compromise" happening. What used to be perfectly decent areas at one time have been turned into ghettos and they ignore pretty much every rule in the book.As for your suggestion that the UK should adopt parts of Sharia law to make them feel more at home -
Bonkers!Pothole said:
BigLion said:
With yet another likely terrorist attack it feels like these are happening daily.
They're not, you're just being sucked in by the media/political hype
What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?
There is no end game. WW1 was ostensibly started by a terrorist organisation, not much has changed since.
Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?
Define "the West"
They're not, you're just being sucked in by the media/political hype
What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?
There is no end game. WW1 was ostensibly started by a terrorist organisation, not much has changed since.
Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?
Define "the West"
Honestly I would have thought people would have a life to be getting on with.
jjlynn27 said:
BigLion said:
Please point me to my post which states I was in anyway concerned? Once you do that then we'll go from there.
Just to the left of the wild outrage post. HTH.BigLion said:
jjlynn27 said:
Oakey said:
Sam All said:
I'd like to think that. However our fairness and our strength will be used against us in the shape of PC and such. I do not underestimate their intellect and their single mindedness, focus & sacrifice for their religion. Technology - Pakistan has nukes and no doubt there is a cosy arrangement with the KSA.
We are greater in number at present but the trend is crystal clear, because of the above, and they punch above their weight. Anyone want to bet that 10% of the UK will be Muslim by 2050? Probably sooner.
It will get messy and messier the longer we sleep walk into this. Respect for the host and their way of life.
Pretty sure it's already been estimated that ten percent of Europe will be muslim by 2030 (or it may be 2050)We are greater in number at present but the trend is crystal clear, because of the above, and they punch above their weight. Anyone want to bet that 10% of the UK will be Muslim by 2050? Probably sooner.
It will get messy and messier the longer we sleep walk into this. Respect for the host and their way of life.
edit: it's 2050 according to the Guardian and they'll outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070
Edited by Oakey on Saturday 23 July 18:56
So sad to see grown men in fear over something that'll 'happen' 30-50 years from now.Bonkers. And 'they' part is really quite telling.
As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!
All that jazz said:
It's clear where your loyalties lay. Perhaps you should visit the heavily populated Muslim areas of the UK to see this alleged "compromise" with your own eyes. You will quickly see that you've been talking st as there is absolutely no evidence of any "compromise" happening. What used to be perfectly decent areas at one time have been turned into ghettos and they ignore pretty much every rule in the book.
As for your suggestion that the UK should adopt parts of Sharia law to make them feel more at home - Bonkers!
To be fair there are plenty of "ghettos" where "they ignore pretty much every rule in the book" and Islam isn't always a common factor (unless you're looking for it to be). t as there is absolutely no evidence of any "compromise" happening. What used to be perfectly decent areas at one time have been turned into ghettos and they ignore pretty much every rule in the book.As for your suggestion that the UK should adopt parts of Sharia law to make them feel more at home -
Bonkers!As an example in the 90s I suspect most who lived in Moss Side in Manchester were probably CoE at one point or another.
FWIW I suspect (but only that) more could be done by the communities themselves to weed out extremism. But even that has always been thus IMO. We are too soft across the board.
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