Terrorism - how will this all end?
Discussion
All that jazz said:
rscott said:
Maybe you could ask any of the Muslims who've been happily living in the Uk for many decades? They seem to find a practical compromise.
It's clear where your loyalties lay. Perhaps you should visit the heavily populated Muslim areas of the UK to see this alleged "compromise" with your own eyes. You will quickly see that you've been talking s
t as there is absolutely no evidence of any "compromise" happening. What used to be perfectly decent areas at one time have been turned into ghettos and they ignore pretty much every rule in the book.As for your suggestion that the UK should adopt parts of Sharia law to make them feel more at home -
Bonkers!So where do you think my loyalties lay? I'm just in favour of not judging the majority on the actions of a few, something quite a few posters on this forum seem to do all the time.
Not sure where you got the section in bold from. I said that where Sharia law is not in conflict with British law, there's no problem with allowing it. For example, Sharia law includes how frequently and the manner in which Muslims should worship - what's the problem with accepting those sections? Obviously those around captial/corporal punishment aren't compatible with UK law at all.
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
fesuvious said:
Why should any part of shariah be accepted here?
It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
Like I said, parts of Sharia law set out the rules of worship, exactly the same as Canon law does for some Christians. What's the problem with adopting that?It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
rscott said:
Like I said, parts of Sharia law set out the rules of worship, exactly the same as Canon law does for some Christians. What's the problem with adopting that?
Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
Very true, but Canon law only applies to practising Christians who have made their life-choice, likewise Halaka and the Jews.Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
The muslims have made it quite clear that they want to force sharia law on everybody, try walking around Brick Lane in the evening with a beer, or a young lady dressed to party!
rscott said:
Thanks, but I've got one of the most depressed areas in the UK just down the road from me and that's almost entirely populated by white English. (Jaywick).
So where do you think my loyalties lay? I'm just in favour of not judging the majority on the actions of a few, something quite a few posters on this forum seem to do all the time.
Not sure where you got the section in bold from. I said that where Sharia law is not in conflict with British law, there's no problem with allowing it. For example, Sharia law includes how frequently and the manner in which Muslims should worship - what's the problem with accepting those sections? Obviously those around captial/corporal punishment aren't compatible with UK law at all.
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
Wait, what? So where do you think my loyalties lay? I'm just in favour of not judging the majority on the actions of a few, something quite a few posters on this forum seem to do all the time.
Not sure where you got the section in bold from. I said that where Sharia law is not in conflict with British law, there's no problem with allowing it. For example, Sharia law includes how frequently and the manner in which Muslims should worship - what's the problem with accepting those sections? Obviously those around captial/corporal punishment aren't compatible with UK law at all.
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
So you acknowledge that fundamental parts of Sharia are not compatible with a civilised society, but said society should wait until a group of Muslim lawyers have tried to make it compatible?
Classic. Meanwhile, imams are praising terrorists & telling those who have endured abuse to go & have a wash. Try & dress it up any way you like, but it's just another Trojan Horse.
So much so, the government has had to launch an inquiry. Don't remember the one for Hanukkah.
PoleDriver said:
rscott said:
Like I said, parts of Sharia law set out the rules of worship, exactly the same as Canon law does for some Christians. What's the problem with adopting that?
Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
Very true, but Canon law only applies to practising Christians who have made their life-choice, likewise Halaka and the Jews.Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
The muslims have made it quite clear that they want to force sharia law on everybody, try walking around Brick Lane in the evening with a beer, or a young lady dressed to party!
I'm also not saying everything is perfect within Islam in the UK - but equally not every part is in need of change either.
rscott said:
fesuvious said:
Why should any part of shariah be accepted here?
It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
Like I said, parts of Sharia law set out the rules of worship, exactly the same as Canon law does for some Christians. What's the problem with adopting that?It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.
What some people fail to realise is that the UK is an amazing country - we are free to practice our religion and build places of worship, we are allowed to wear religious articles, we have seen places of work accommodate religion where it can etc. etc. and yet certain religious groups are still not happy.
If anyone can show me a more flexible mainstream country then happy to take a look - but in the meantime compare the UK to most other countries and realise why this is one of the most accommodating countries in the world and we have no reason to accommodate outdated modes of thinking which are fundamentally counter to our country values.
BigLion said:
fesuvious said:
How about we just outlaw the practice of 'shariah patrols' and make it a custodial offence?
Exactly!The police need to do the same with any new patrols.
rscott said:
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
Yes I have a problem with sharia councils, and no I absolutely do not think they are a sensible approach. It/they are eroding rights that have taken centuries to earn.http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sharia-law-britain-things...
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/08/sharia...
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/344717-sharia-law-uk-ma...
heebeegeetee said:
rscott said:
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
Yes I have a problem with sharia councils, and no I absolutely do not think they are a sensible approach. It/they are eroding rights that have taken centuries to earn.http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sharia-law-britain-things...
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/08/sharia...
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/344717-sharia-law-uk-ma...
rscott said:
Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
fesuvious said:
Why should any part of shariah be accepted here?
It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
you do realise that the islamic councils are there to judge on islamic matters only e.g. islamic marriage laws. Muslims in the UK are happy under UK laws. Yes you still get some tIt shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.
Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.
In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.
ts waving the ISIS/Sharia banner, but look into their lives a little deeper and I am certain you find some other personal issues they are dealing with that need resolving.Can you explain to me what exactly Sharia Law is?? Most islamic scholars are not even able to define Sharia Law, thats why if you look at so called "Sharia countries" they all have different laws and are unable to maintain/govern them within islamic guidelines. Look at places like Turkey who keep religion away from state affairs to a certain extent and you will see a happy medium.
I am worried about ISIS/Terrorists/Mentally Ill people killing each other and us. But I am more afraid of the ignorance/intolerance of parties on both sides.
We have our governments removing the stability from these regions (Saddam/Gaddafi). We then have people being killed and displaced (syria/Iraq/afghanistan) with illegal wars (why is tony now under review for war crimes?). Unfortunately we have "Islamic scholars" taking advantage of the youth over there and teaching intolerance because of them losing people close to them and they every day lives.
It seems to me the attacks have become more desperate and more frequent because of terrorists losing most of their strongholds and now panicking.
More muslims are killed by these terrorists than non-muslims... every attacker so far in the west has had links to depression/drug abuse/mental health issues.
Living in the UK as a muslim I am afraid of people like you... not "muslims", not "terrorists" but people with mental health issues/drug abuse issues and the general intolerant of anything, willing to spout a load of uninformed nonsense trying to get people to agree with his views... bit like Anjem Choudary et al
tight fart said:
If you take a thousand Muslims let's say there's 1 extremist, he probably has 5 mates who agree with him and look up to him, they may have a dozen or so friends each who look up to them but don't say it so loudly. They sound out their thoughts at the mosque and a lot nod in agreement but aren't really sure if they agree but don't speak up against. And the other 800 or so Muslims are as horrified as the rest of us at the atrocities going on.
So in answer to the question it can only stop when the 800 peaceful Muslims speak up loud enough that the 199 that lean towards extremism move towards them and denounce the suicidal nutcase.
Until then we are doomed we're doomed.
Unlikely to happen:So in answer to the question it can only stop when the 800 peaceful Muslims speak up loud enough that the 199 that lean towards extremism move towards them and denounce the suicidal nutcase.
Until then we are doomed we're doomed.
"Astonishing" two in three British Muslims would NOT give police terror tip-offs
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659913/two-in-thr...
Username888 said:
Unlikely to happen:
"Astonishing" two in three British Muslims would NOT give police terror tip-offs
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659913/two-in-thr...
According to how many people polled? and from where? a spread of demographics/regions? "Astonishing" two in three British Muslims would NOT give police terror tip-offs
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/659913/two-in-thr...
oh wait article doesn't mention that. Wonder why??
heebeegeetee said:
rscott said:
Do you have a problem with an organisation like the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal ( http://www.matribunal.com/why-MAT.php ) . They use an expert panel including solicitors, barristers, judges and Islamic scholars to deal with civil disputes involving Muslims. Their aim is to make decisions compliant with both UK and Islamic law. Surely this is a sensible approach?
Yes I have a problem with sharia councils, and no I absolutely do not think they are a sensible approach. It/they are eroding rights that have taken centuries to earn.Esseesse said:
Just popping in here. I think what this comes down to is religious laws/guidelines are fine to follow personally, however problems arise when we begin to have 'organisations' pushing some law or other. As they grow they begin to carry authority, regardless of if they technically have no UK legal authority (authority through peer pressure effectively). At a certain point they challenge and undermine our national institutions.
>>Under sharia's civil code, a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's. A man can divorce his wife by repudiation, whereas a woman must give justifications, some of which are difficult to prove. Child custody reverts to the father at a preset age; women who remarry lose custody of their children even before then; and sons inherit twice the share of daughters.<<>>Sharia councils will frequently ask people to sign an agreement to abide by their decisions. Councils call themselves courts and the presiding imams are judges. There is neither control over the appointment of these judges nor an independent monitoring mechanism. People often do not have access to legal advice and representation. Proceedings are not recorded, nor are there any searchable legal judgements. Nor is there any real right to appeal.<<
>>An example of the kind of decision that is contrary to UK law and public policy is the custody of children. Under British law, the child's best interest is the court's paramount consideration. In a sharia court the custody of children reverts to the father at a preset age regardless of the circumstances.<<
I don't think these guidelines are fine to follow.
>>Rights, justice, inclusion, equality and respect are for people, not for beliefs and parallel legal systems. To safeguard the rights and freedoms of all those living in Britain, there must be one secular law for all and no religious courts.<<
Sorry, forgot to post the link. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2010/jul/05/sharia...
Google reveals lots of stuff like this.
Sorry, forgot to post the link. https://www.theguardian.com/law/2010/jul/05/sharia...
Google reveals lots of stuff like this.
One thing we must not do is become ambivalant or numbed to the next terror strike, and the next one...
the fact that it is being reported increasingly and it feels like a weekly occurence we mustn't normalise it.
I wonder what ISIS actually want. Would or should we be at the point of offering diplomacy? discussions rather than drone strikes and suicide bombers....
the fact that it is being reported increasingly and it feels like a weekly occurence we mustn't normalise it.
I wonder what ISIS actually want. Would or should we be at the point of offering diplomacy? discussions rather than drone strikes and suicide bombers....
triggerh4ppy said:
you do realise that the islamic councils are there to judge on islamic matters only e.g. islamic marriage laws. Muslims in the UK are happy under UK laws. Yes you still get some tts waving the ISIS/Sharia banner, but look into their lives a little deeper and I am certain you find some other personal issues they are dealing with that need resolving.
Can you explain to me what exactly Sharia Law is?? Most islamic scholars are not even able to define Sharia Law, thats why if you look at so called "Sharia countries" they all have different laws and are unable to maintain/govern them within islamic guidelines. Look at places like Turkey who keep religion away from state affairs to a certain extent and you will see a happy medium.
I am worried about ISIS/Terrorists/Mentally Ill people killing each other and us. But I am more afraid of the ignorance/intolerance of parties on both sides.
We have our governments removing the stability from these regions (Saddam/Gaddafi). We then have people being killed and displaced (syria/Iraq/afghanistan) with illegal wars (why is tony now under review for war crimes?). Unfortunately we have "Islamic scholars" taking advantage of the youth over there and teaching intolerance because of them losing people close to them and they every day lives.
It seems to me the attacks have become more desperate and more frequent because of terrorists losing most of their strongholds and now panicking.
More muslims are killed by these terrorists than non-muslims... every attacker so far in the west has had links to depression/drug abuse/mental health issues.
Living in the UK as a muslim I am afraid of people like you... not "muslims", not "terrorists" but people with mental health issues/drug abuse issues and the general intolerant of anything, willing to spout a load of uninformed nonsense trying to get people to agree with his views... bit like Anjem Choudary et al
As a British Muslim, I can echo your comments ref Anjem Choudry ie these threads have some extreme views on what we should do with "them" but no Muslims in sight. ts waving the ISIS/Sharia banner, but look into their lives a little deeper and I am certain you find some other personal issues they are dealing with that need resolving.Can you explain to me what exactly Sharia Law is?? Most islamic scholars are not even able to define Sharia Law, thats why if you look at so called "Sharia countries" they all have different laws and are unable to maintain/govern them within islamic guidelines. Look at places like Turkey who keep religion away from state affairs to a certain extent and you will see a happy medium.
I am worried about ISIS/Terrorists/Mentally Ill people killing each other and us. But I am more afraid of the ignorance/intolerance of parties on both sides.
We have our governments removing the stability from these regions (Saddam/Gaddafi). We then have people being killed and displaced (syria/Iraq/afghanistan) with illegal wars (why is tony now under review for war crimes?). Unfortunately we have "Islamic scholars" taking advantage of the youth over there and teaching intolerance because of them losing people close to them and they every day lives.
It seems to me the attacks have become more desperate and more frequent because of terrorists losing most of their strongholds and now panicking.
More muslims are killed by these terrorists than non-muslims... every attacker so far in the west has had links to depression/drug abuse/mental health issues.
Living in the UK as a muslim I am afraid of people like you... not "muslims", not "terrorists" but people with mental health issues/drug abuse issues and the general intolerant of anything, willing to spout a load of uninformed nonsense trying to get people to agree with his views... bit like Anjem Choudary et al
How can you expect any Muslim to post on here when there is so much Muslim bashing and blaming and so much painting us all with one brush? Also some offensive quotes from the media or from people who hate Islam.
To the poster who said 2/3 Muslims wouldn't shop an extremist, that's Bull. I and anyone in my family and circle of friends would have no issues in shopping a extremist to the authorities even if it was another family member!
I now find myself keeping we away from N, P & E because it seems every thread turns into Muslim bashing with some very offensive and Ill informed quotes being quoted. How many Muslims have posted on here some extreme view? How many non Muslims have posted extreme views? And no the views of attackers don't count because they are nutters and non Muslims because of the actions they have chosen.
Obviously Muslim members on here to post their views are in short supply,I think the reason for that is all the negative posts about Muslims. I truly despair at some of the comments made accross all Muslims bashing threads. As a Muslim I'm just at risk at being attacked or having someone I know attacked but because I'm Muslim I must be one of the attackers or an sympathiser of these attackers. It only serves to create more animosity between people and that's the way some of these threads pan out.
None of you Muslim bashers have taken the time to actually speak in depth to a Muslim to see what they think instead you quote some stupid data saying statistically Muslims will do this or statistically they will do that, well that's all Bull.
Why don't you speak to someone and you'll see that 95% of us denounce any attack on anyone, we don't have a problem with gays we can Co exist peacefully and we do our bit to make the UK safer!We went through the same schools as you we we do the same jobs as you. We were taught to be tolerant of Non Islamic practices because we live in a non Islamic country. We were taught not to force our religion on people.
I work in defence as a contractor and I have played my part in the watchkeeper drone project, I have also done my bit in working on missile defence systems that are sold to countries fighting IS. I have also worked on avionics systems for the Israeli military this meant working alongside Jewish colleagues and never once was I made to feel like a terrorist or sympathiser. Most of these roles required enhanced security checks on my background which included family members. My family and friends are all extremely proud of the work I do, as am I. I'm currently working at Defence company that is directly affecting IS with the products it makes.
I have 2 cousins who are in the forces (both RAF) they don't shout about it and I have never had to until this point.
What I'm saying is if you actually speak to a British Muslim you'll find we are involved in the fight against terrorism one way or another. Standing up and denouncing stuff is difficult when there is so much negativity in the air,people naturally avoid confrontation even Muslims!
To all the posters who post balanced views stating we shouldn't all be painted with the same brush, Thank you. To all the bashers I implore you to speak to UK Muslims face to face to see what they really think about these so called Muslims from the so called Islamic State. Next time your in the kebab house or in the back of a taxi just ask them what your thoughts are and I think you'll be surprised at what you find.
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