Terrorism - how will this all end?

Terrorism - how will this all end?

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Discussion

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
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BigLion said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
Interesting read - this may ring true:

Why do observant Muslims panic and get violently provoked at the slightest sight of “sinning” and “sinners”? Why are they so afraid of abandoning their beliefs when others, not themselves, sin? Why do they think, for instance, the sight of someone not fasting during Ramadan - someone who may not even be Muslim, or who may be sick, or who may be pregnant, etc. - and eating, drinking or smoking publicly may impair their own fasting? Why do they fear that they may be sinning when someone sitting at the next table at a restaurant is drinking alcohol? What so deeply annoys them when someone else sins? Do they think, like homosexuality, sinning can also be contagious? And are they sure they are sin-free? Is anyone?

There must be a rich menu of explanations. But one answer is probably hidden in the observant Muslim’s “conquest-fetish.” This is about his obsession with spreading his own (and only his own) practice of Islam to non-Muslim, not-Muslim-enough, and not-pious-enough lands. These lands could be a foreign country, or another Turkish city, or his own neighborhood. Call it “infidelphobia.”

Edited by BigLion on Wednesday 27th July 22:05
It was dead funny living in the Middle East for so long. Every Ramadan was the pinnacle where they'd outlaw eating, drinking, smoking etc... during the day. They were basically banning temptation. All I thought was it must be a st religion that it's adherents could fold instantly with the visual of a chip buttie.

I won't mention the gorging as soon as iftar was called. I'm sure the good guys were having a modest meal somewhere while counting their blessings, but I didn't see many of them.

BigLion

Original Poster:

1,497 posts

98 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
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Sir Gerald Howarth, Tory MP for Aldershot, said:

"Three cheers for Trevor Phillips. I think he is absolutely right. There's an element in the Muslim community which reject our values, while enjoying our tolerance.

"We are a tolerant nation because we are routed in the Christian faith, which is a tolerant religion. As our own religious observance declines, a vacuum is being created into which the hardline Islamist community is stepping.

"We have been a very complacent society."

Allison Pearson, a columnist for the Daily Telegraph, called for an immediate ban on all Sharia courts in Britain and called on the government to ensure that all citizens are subject to British law. She summed up the British predicament:

"This is serious. Unless we succeed, the live-and-let-live attitude which makes Britain such a great place could end up being its death warrant."

C.A.R.

3,967 posts

187 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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Imagine a world without religion altogether. That's where I'd like to be.

Just a mutual understanding of right from wrong, no places of worship, no holy books. It'll never happen, but it would be the best outcome for humanity!

It's the 21st century for crying out loud - folks have been studying religions for hundreds of years without an ounce of credible evidence to prove that ancient scripture is anything other than fairy tale. To an alien species looking down on us, any society supporting a religious faith would look positively like a mental incapacity.

The world is full of religious nutjobs and only a portion of those are Islamic.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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BigLion said:
rscott said:
BigLion said:
I think we might have already lost the fight based on the results from channel 4 undertaking the most robust survey (on the matter) ever undertaken.

100,000 British Muslims support suicide bombings.

2 million British Muslim wouldn't tell authorities if someone they knew was going to Syria.
The same survey said 600,000 of the UK population also supported suicide bombers and that a larger percentage of the general population wouldn't tell on someone going off to join IS.

The survey isn't the most robust ever taken - it excluded half the Muslims in the UK because they lived in areas with less than 20% Muslims.
A spokesperson for Channel 4 told HuffPost UK on Monday, the programme would be “very clear” about how the survey was conducted.

“Around 50 per cent of British Muslims live in the areas we surveyed. ICM, which is one of the UK’s leading polling organisations, with a long track record of producing credible and accurate surveys, is satisfied that the results allow us to draw strong conclusions about the views of UK Muslims.

“There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims have radically different attitudes to the issues surveyed depending on whether they live in areas of more than, or less, than 20 per cent Muslim population.”
From http://tellmamauk.org/why-the-latest-poll-wont-tel...

"Of the 1,081 Muslims polled, 55 per cent were Pakistani. British Asians/Asians totaled 83 per cent of the polling data. Data from the last census revealed that British Asian/Asians totaled 67.6 per cent of Muslims in England and Wales.
The poll included just 11 Arabs and 16 white Muslims who account for 6.6 per cent and 7.8 per cent of Muslims in England and Wales."

And

"There was little support among the Muslims polled to establish a caliphate. Support for ISIS polled at just 3 per cent. Few blamed the police or government for girls travelling to Syria.
More than a third of Muslims polled would report individuals who they suspected of seeking to participate in terrorism abroad to police. A figure that stands above the control sample of 30 per cent. Nearly half would attempt to dissuade the individual."

Or try http://www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/whatmuslimsreal...

"I’m also a little concerned about the sample. I have no doubt that the sample was gathered in a “robust way”, but that doesn’t mean that the sample is entirely representative of the British Muslim population. It has an older aged sample – over 80% are over age 25 and 50% over age 35; over third of the sample are in higher social grades; over half are owner occupiers; nearly half are in employment; and approximately 56% of the Muslim sample are born outside of Britain.

Why does that matter? It matters because in contrast to this Muslim sample, over half of the Muslim population in the general population are under the age of 25, a mere 5.5% are in the higher professional and managerial professions, about 40% own their own property, only a fifth are in full time employment and almost half are British born"

And

"And then there is the “control group” in the poll that is used to compare the findings from Muslims with the “rest of the population” – a control group who at a glance are younger, more diverse in ethnicity and more affluent."




These suggest to me that the poll didn't take a representative sample of all Muslims, so can't be said to represent the views of all Muslims in the UK properly.

If you accept the poll as accurate then you must accept that Muslims are more likely to report someone heading off to join IS than a typical member of the public.

All that jazz

7,632 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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The simple solution is to level the Middle East and certain cities in the UK. Problem over. Too many apologists and handwringers in these threads.

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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rscott said:
Or try http://www.runnymedetrust.org/blog/whatmuslimsreal...

"I’m also a little concerned about the sample. I have no doubt that the sample was gathered in a “robust way”, but that doesn’t mean that the sample is entirely representative of the British Muslim population. It has an older aged sample – over 80% are over age 25 and 50% over age 35; over third of the sample are in higher social grades; over half are owner occupiers; nearly half are in employment; and approximately 56% of the Muslim sample are born outside of Britain.

Why does that matter? It matters because in contrast to this Muslim sample, over half of the Muslim population in the general population are under the age of 25, a mere 5.5% are in the higher professional and managerial professions, about 40% own their own property, only a fifth are in full time employment and almost half are British born"

And

"And then there is the “control group” in the poll that is used to compare the findings from Muslims with the “rest of the population” – a control group who at a glance are younger, more diverse in ethnicity and more affluent."




These suggest to me that the poll didn't take a representative sample of all Muslims, so can't be said to represent the views of all Muslims in the UK properly.

If you accept the poll as accurate then you must accept that Muslims are more likely to report someone heading off to join IS than a typical member of the public.
The rather alarming thing, especially if we believe that lack of integration is a significant part of the problem, is that the sample seems to be better integrated than average, with more professionals, home owners etc, and with older people who you would think less likely to be susceptible to radicalisation?

Or am I reading that wrong?

Zoon

6,654 posts

120 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.

Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
Zoon said:
The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.

Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Where has simply complaining about how some dresses lead to a conviction for race crimes? The recent case involved physical contact and forced removal of the clothes.

Re the bold comment - in a tiny fraction of Muslim countries, but the vast majority have no issues with building new churches - http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/showthread.php... . . It's pretty much only Saudi Arabia which forbid it.

In fact in some countries, Muslims even build the churches for the Christians - http://muslimnews.co.uk/news/south-asia/Pakistani-...

jdw100

4,067 posts

163 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
All that jazz said:
The simple solution is to level the Middle East and certain cities in the UK. Problem over. Too many apologists and handwringers in these threads.
Somewhat drastic?

Maybe let's not have this as the first option on the table.....

jdw100

4,067 posts

163 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
Zoon said:
The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.

Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.


I think that's very simplistic.

Our values are to be tolerant of other ways of life. That's one of the things that makes us European/western.

I went to Makassar for a wedding recently - a Muslim wedding in fact. I didn't dress like the people at the wedding but you know what; they didn't frown at me or even kill me. They treated me well, lots of ladies forcing food at me and I ended up in quite a few photos with my arms around various 'aunties'.

Was there drinking - no. But they were happy with some of us non-Muslim types drinking cans of beer outside the wedding marquee. Some old Muslim chap opened up his garage for us as well so we could shelter from the sun.

Had a night on the town - very few bars. One of my friends was wearing a jumpsuit slashed right down to the navel. Did anyone kill us....again no.

Went out for a dinner as well - no one gave a st that I had a beer whilst they drank ice tea.

They were tolerant and accepting of the fact my way of life is different.

In fact I've had more problems in the USA for and I quote; 'dressing like a faggot and ordering a faggot's drink'.....




Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
NicheMonkey said:
Mr Whippy said:
It's just worrying that you keep using the words 'must accept'

Why aren't they accepting to begin with?

Does Islam teach intolerance? Or is it just an interpretation that if others don't follow Islam then they are not to be tolerated because they're partaking in forbidden activities?


I'm not even sure if your explanations do most Muslims justice because it's suggesting they need to be taught or changed or exercise effort to be tolerant and to co-exist. I don't believe even that is the case for many Muslims in the UK.
Do you just want to argue with me? I've tried to give my honest opinion about what Muslims can do to integrate better. I've integrated and so have all my family and friends, obviously this isn't the case for everyone and my examples were just that. I did say that tolerating people's views and beliefs goes without saying but you didnt pick up on that.

I tried to give an opinion which has been lacking on these threads and it's people like you who make me wish I didn't because yet again words are being misrepresented and twisted. Pick away at my post as much as you like, that is my view a tolerant one. Make it negative if you want that's your view.

I'm out. Peace and love to all.
I'm not twisting anything.

I'm either asking for clarification (? at ends of scentences implies a query)

And my final sentence reinforces your apparent position in saying I don't even believe that it's even half as bad as you paint it. It's better still.
If you can't take a mild criticism like that then we're all doomed!

Peace and love to all too.

Zoon

6,654 posts

120 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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jdw100 said:


Our values are to be tolerant of other ways of life.
The problems start when we become too tolerant.
I have no issue with anyone who wants to live here as long as they adopt our values and try and at least be part of the community. What I find worrying is the very secular ways of some who after many years of living here refuse to learn any English at all.

It's no way for people to live harmoniously.

tenfour

26,140 posts

213 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
All that jazz said:
The simple solution is to level the Middle East and certain cities in the UK. Problem over. Too many apologists and handwringers in these threads.
Yep, just level the entire middle east. Problem solved.

All that Jaz for Prime Minister!

lionelf

612 posts

99 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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You could start by banning ALL religion outside of the home. No right to worship outside of the home and no place to gather either (ie Church/Mosque/Synagogue etc). Then no particular group/religion could claim that they were being unfairly repressed. Those who followed a religion would discover that if they wanted to both pray and hold down a job they'd have to live in a country that still allows religion to hold sway.

It's not perfect but I fail to see how else you can stop all this nonsense whilst appearing even-handed to all sides.


jdw100

4,067 posts

163 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
Zoon said:
The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.

Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Also, just to add, this whole argument of 'Muslims' moving to the UK and not adapting to our way of life.

I live in a Hindu dominated country.

Have I immediately joined their faith - no
Have I ditched my western clothing - no
Learning the language - yes
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no.
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England?
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do!

I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?

I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...

Digga

40,202 posts

282 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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From the BBC report on the France church attack
BBC said:
"Following DNA tests, it emerged that the terrorist has been identified as Abdel Malik Nabil Petitjean," a source in the Paris prosecutor's office said.

Petitjean, from a town in eastern France, had been on a watch list as a potential security threat since June after trying to enter Syria from Turkey.

After Petitjean was named, his mother, Yamina, denied he could have been the killer.

"I know my kid, he is kind. I did not produce a devil. He never talked about IS," she told BFM television.
In one sense, you wonder whether, even if the mother knew, would she have said? But the flip side of this is what parent does really know what they're kids get up to, once they're old enough to get out and about on their own?

I mean, I never told my parents what I was up to, why would I? If I was asked where I'd been, I'd say who I was with, but not, for example, the fact we'd been playing on the West Coast main railway line, or building a rope swing over the canal.

Zoon

6,654 posts

120 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
jdw100 said:
Learning the language - yes
And in one fell swoop you have immediately made more effort than people in large areas of this country.
I'm not saying people should become English with immediate effect.
Making an effort to remotely integrate would be a start.

Digga

40,202 posts

282 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
Zoon said:
jdw100 said:
Learning the language - yes
And in one fell swoop you have immediately made more effort than people in large areas of this country.
I'm not saying people should become English with immediate effect.
Making an effort to remotely integrate would be a start.
The chances of anyone integrating, finding work, or becoming a productive and well-adjusted member of any society are increased immeasurably by their ability to speak the local language.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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jdw100 said:
Have I immediately joined their faith - No (no need to, however in an Islamic country you will face certain restrictions if you do not)
Have I ditched my western clothing - yes ... (define "western clothing" )
Learning the language - yes... (worth doing wherever you go)
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes (do you expect the locals to accommodate your religious traditions?)
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no (no need)
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no. (will your children try to change the locals, or will they integrate?)
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes (as above... will they try to change the locals?)
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England? (I would imagine they would indeed)
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no (and rightly so)
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do! (they gripe and complain... but they don't try to change things in my experience, nor would they be allowed to)

I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?

I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...
I've commented in brackets

harry.

28 posts

105 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
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It's interesting to read how the religion of Islam is seen as the root cause of the majority of the terrorism, i.e the caliphate, being unable to integrate to western values etc.
But there's very little mention of reason why some of these people turn to terrorism, whilst some of it is surely down to being brainwashed and converted, some is also down the western bombs accidentally hitting a civilians house, killing innocent people. 60 or so innocent people died in Syria the other week from the US bomb hitting the wrong target.
Lots of people just seem fixated on one reason (the religion) when the picture is a lot bigger.