Terrorism - how will this all end?
Discussion
jdw100 said:
Also, just to add, this whole argument of 'Muslims' moving to the UK and not adapting to our way of life.
I live in a Hindu dominated country.
Have I immediately joined their faith - no
Have I ditched my western clothing - no
Learning the language - yes
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no.
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England?
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do!
I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?
I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...
Do you blow up public buildings in response to any perceived slight against Christianity? I live in a Hindu dominated country.
Have I immediately joined their faith - no
Have I ditched my western clothing - no
Learning the language - yes
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no.
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England?
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do!
I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?
I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...
Zoon said:
jdw100 said:
Our values are to be tolerant of other ways of life.
I have no issue with anyone who wants to live here as long as they adopt our values and try and at least be part of the community. What I find worrying is the very secular ways of some who after many years of living here refuse to learn any English at all.
It's no way for people to live harmoniously.
However, I went out for a while with a GP who works in East London.
She had a lot of people (mostly women) into her surgery that were 2/3 gen from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh with very little English.
Is that because they hate us - no it's because the awful culture they are brought up in precludes them from mixing with people outside the family. Certainly no evening courses for them. They were often on antidepressants and, sadly, vit D as got very little exposure to sunlight. Very sad and not at all their fault.
Also, I live in Indonesia....it's bloody hard to get friendly with the locals. Where I live the local Temple is the big thing, should I join the Hindu faith just to fit in?
I come from a culture of going to the pub, drinking etc. That's not the culture here for local people - which is why a lot of immigrants (or ex-pats if you prefer) stick to their own.
So as an immigrant should I adopt the values here? Maybe I'll get a dog and stick it in a small cage. Would you like me to carry 2 or 3 kids on my scooter? How about get my wife to do all the cooking?
It's not easy, so to say anyone moving to a new country should immediately accept the values is just not realistic. Ask anyone who has tried it.....I do t know how many languages you speak but it is hard to get to a point where you can hold a meaningful conversation in another language.
skyrover said:
jdw100 said:
Have I immediately joined their faith - No (no need to, however in an Islamic country you will face certain restrictions if you do not) no issues at all so far
Have I ditched my western clothing - yes ... (define "western clothing" ) I meant no!!
Learning the language - yes... (worth doing wherever you go)
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes (do you expect the locals to accommodate your religious traditions?) they will, I'm sure
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no (no need) it's where the locals socialise, like we have our local pubs.
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no. (will your children try to change the locals, or will they integrate?) integrate I hope
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes (as above... will they try to change the locals?) maybe
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England? (I would imagine they would indeed) remember Tebbit's cricket team test, that's the point I'm trying to make.
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no (and rightly so)
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do! (they gripe and complain... but they don't try to change things in my experience, nor would they be allowed to) there are so many campaigns and Facebook groups and environmental pressure stuff that goes on here...
I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?
I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...
I've commented in bracketsHave I ditched my western clothing - yes ... (define "western clothing" ) I meant no!!
Learning the language - yes... (worth doing wherever you go)
Will i celebrate Christmas - yes (do you expect the locals to accommodate your religious traditions?) they will, I'm sure
Ditched drinking and started going to the temple? - no (no need) it's where the locals socialise, like we have our local pubs.
Will my children be brought up exactly as the locals - no. (will your children try to change the locals, or will they integrate?) integrate I hope
Will my children be brought up with English heritage and go back to their father's country of origin on a regular basis - yes (as above... will they try to change the locals?) maybe
Will they support the local teams in all international events - don't know, maybe they will feel they would like to support England? (I would imagine they would indeed) remember Tebbit's cricket team test, that's the point I'm trying to make.
Will they grow up with the only local outlook and views on politics, culture etc - no (and rightly so)
Do westerners coming to live here try to change things they don't like - they sure do! (they gripe and complain... but they don't try to change things in my experience, nor would they be allowed to) there are so many campaigns and Facebook groups and environmental pressure stuff that goes on here...
I do t think any of the above is unreasonable. So why do we expect people coming to the UK to be completely English within a few months or the next generation?
I have this discussion quite often with my dad.....his view is people coming to live in the UK should adopt our culture very quickly. Can never seem to understand why this should apply to, say, his nieces if they moved to India or France or China...
jdw100 said:
In an ideal world - absolutely!
However, I went out for a while with a GP who works in East London.
She had a lot of people (mostly women) into her surgery that were 2/3 gen from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh with very little English.
Is that because they hate us - no it's because the awful culture they are brought up in precludes them from mixing with people outside the family. Certainly no evening courses for them. They were often on antidepressants and, sadly, vit D as got very little exposure to sunlight. Very sad and not at all their fault.
Also, I live in Indonesia....it's bloody hard to get friendly with the locals. Where I live the local Temple is the big thing, should I join the Hindu faith just to fit in?
I come from a culture of going to the pub, drinking etc. That's not the culture here for local people - which is why a lot of immigrants (or ex-pats if you prefer) stick to their own.
So as an immigrant should I adopt the values here? Maybe I'll get a dog and stick it in a small cage. Would you like me to carry 2 or 3 kids on my scooter? How about get my wife to do all the cooking?
It's not easy, so to say anyone moving to a new country should immediately accept the values is just not realistic. Ask anyone who has tried it.....I do t know how many languages you speak but it is hard to get to a point where you can hold a meaningful conversation in another language.
I speak three fluently, but then again I'm in the minority. However, I went out for a while with a GP who works in East London.
She had a lot of people (mostly women) into her surgery that were 2/3 gen from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh with very little English.
Is that because they hate us - no it's because the awful culture they are brought up in precludes them from mixing with people outside the family. Certainly no evening courses for them. They were often on antidepressants and, sadly, vit D as got very little exposure to sunlight. Very sad and not at all their fault.
Also, I live in Indonesia....it's bloody hard to get friendly with the locals. Where I live the local Temple is the big thing, should I join the Hindu faith just to fit in?
I come from a culture of going to the pub, drinking etc. That's not the culture here for local people - which is why a lot of immigrants (or ex-pats if you prefer) stick to their own.
So as an immigrant should I adopt the values here? Maybe I'll get a dog and stick it in a small cage. Would you like me to carry 2 or 3 kids on my scooter? How about get my wife to do all the cooking?
It's not easy, so to say anyone moving to a new country should immediately accept the values is just not realistic. Ask anyone who has tried it.....I do t know how many languages you speak but it is hard to get to a point where you can hold a meaningful conversation in another language.
My grandmother moved here from France after the war, which explains why French is one of them.
So its religion v pub isnt it really ?
We tend to go for a booze up, the religious go and pray and never the twain shall meet, of course you have teetotal westerners and hard drinking folk whose religion generally doesnt allow it, but that is how it is.
Inter marriage is difficult, I wouldn't have any problem with one of my three marrying anyone, as long as they are happy, and that includes gay marriage, long since realised life is too short to get hung up on such things, but too marry someone of another faith, you have to convert, thats if you get chance to meet in the first place which is made very difficult by culture, most of which is based on religious foundations.
I think all the different races and religions should interbreed completely but religion is in the way, you arent in our club so you cant be together, you have a foreskin so you cant marry my daughter, ffs, it isnt like they have left hand threaded fannies or something.
We tend to go for a booze up, the religious go and pray and never the twain shall meet, of course you have teetotal westerners and hard drinking folk whose religion generally doesnt allow it, but that is how it is.
Inter marriage is difficult, I wouldn't have any problem with one of my three marrying anyone, as long as they are happy, and that includes gay marriage, long since realised life is too short to get hung up on such things, but too marry someone of another faith, you have to convert, thats if you get chance to meet in the first place which is made very difficult by culture, most of which is based on religious foundations.
I think all the different races and religions should interbreed completely but religion is in the way, you arent in our club so you cant be together, you have a foreskin so you cant marry my daughter, ffs, it isnt like they have left hand threaded fannies or something.
It makes no sense and sets a bad precedent if all religion were to be banned just because of the intolerance of one.
Of course, people like Farage were correct in saying uncontrolled immigration will enable undesirables to enter undetected (strange how that's ignored), so now the fools who enabled this are proved wrong and we have to live with their stupidity, something has to be done now based on what we've got. We could intern or deport the 10,000 or so already known to the security services and impose an immediate halt to all but known to be OK / bone fide immigrants and maybe even (racist this may be to some
) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.
Of course, people like Farage were correct in saying uncontrolled immigration will enable undesirables to enter undetected (strange how that's ignored), so now the fools who enabled this are proved wrong and we have to live with their stupidity, something has to be done now based on what we've got. We could intern or deport the 10,000 or so already known to the security services and impose an immediate halt to all but known to be OK / bone fide immigrants and maybe even (racist this may be to some
) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.Zoon said:
Guybrush said:
maybe even (racist this may be to some ) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.
I think that was one of the major selling points of Brexit. ) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.If they don't do that then it will basically be a waste of time.
rscott said:
Zoon said:
Guybrush said:
maybe even (racist this may be to some ) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.
I think that was one of the major selling points of Brexit. ) impose entry qualifications like required trades or other particular skill requirements.If they don't do that then it will basically be a waste of time.
J4CKO said:
So its religion v pub isnt it really ?
We tend to go for a booze up, the religious go and pray and never the twain shall meet, of course you have teetotal westerners and hard drinking folk whose religion generally doesnt allow it, but that is how it is.
Inter marriage is difficult, I wouldn't have any problem with one of my three marrying anyone, as long as they are happy, and that includes gay marriage, long since realised life is too short to get hung up on such things, but too marry someone of another faith, you have to convert, thats if you get chance to meet in the first place which is made very difficult by culture, most of which is based on religious foundations.
I think all the different races and religions should interbreed completely but religion is in the way, you arent in our club so you cant be together, you have a foreskin so you cant marry my daughter, ffs, it isnt like they have left hand threaded fannies or something.
I married a Christian Indonesian national on an island that is mostly Hindu in a country where most of the 250m people are Muslim. Didn't have to convert and to be honest I've never had a problem.We tend to go for a booze up, the religious go and pray and never the twain shall meet, of course you have teetotal westerners and hard drinking folk whose religion generally doesnt allow it, but that is how it is.
Inter marriage is difficult, I wouldn't have any problem with one of my three marrying anyone, as long as they are happy, and that includes gay marriage, long since realised life is too short to get hung up on such things, but too marry someone of another faith, you have to convert, thats if you get chance to meet in the first place which is made very difficult by culture, most of which is based on religious foundations.
I think all the different races and religions should interbreed completely but religion is in the way, you arent in our club so you cant be together, you have a foreskin so you cant marry my daughter, ffs, it isnt like they have left hand threaded fannies or something.
Some people have asked about my religion and have been a bit surprised that I don't have one, but that's as far as it goes.
No one has been offended or threatened by this or angry.
I've had far worse reactions in the USA. Had someone there offer to pray for my soul....
Most people seem to have too much going on trying to make a living or find a boyfriend or catch a Pokemon to really care.
I've met Christians here that are a bit po-faced but to balance it I go out clubbing with some Muslim friends who wear next to nothing and love a good drink. Had one of our friends pop over yesterday, she was smoking and having a vodka - I was at her Muslim wedding in Feb. The guy she married got some certificate for $20 so the imam was happy to marry them...and yes he assures me his foreskin is intact!
Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail......
jdw100 said:
I married a Christian Indonesian national on an island that is mostly Hindu in a country where most of the 250m people are Muslim. Didn't have to convert and to be honest I've never had a problem.
Some people have asked about my religion and have been a bit surprised that I don't have one, but that's as far as it goes.
No one has been offended or threatened by this or angry.
I've had far worse reactions in the USA. Had someone there offer to pray for my soul....
Most people seem to have too much going on trying to make a living or find a boyfriend or catch a Pokemon to really care.
I've met Christians here that are a bit po-faced but to balance it I go out clubbing with some Muslim friends who wear next to nothing and love a good drink. Had one of our friends pop over yesterday, she was smoking and having a vodka - I was at her Muslim wedding in Feb. The guy she married got some certificate for $20 so the imam was happy to marry them...and yes he assures me his foreskin is intact!
Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail......
to be fair to jacko i don't think he puts much stock in the daily mail. looks to be one of the considered posters on these threads and puts a fair bit of serious thought into what he posts generally (certainly more than i tend to Some people have asked about my religion and have been a bit surprised that I don't have one, but that's as far as it goes.
No one has been offended or threatened by this or angry.
I've had far worse reactions in the USA. Had someone there offer to pray for my soul....
Most people seem to have too much going on trying to make a living or find a boyfriend or catch a Pokemon to really care.
I've met Christians here that are a bit po-faced but to balance it I go out clubbing with some Muslim friends who wear next to nothing and love a good drink. Had one of our friends pop over yesterday, she was smoking and having a vodka - I was at her Muslim wedding in Feb. The guy she married got some certificate for $20 so the imam was happy to marry them...and yes he assures me his foreskin is intact!
Don't believe everything you read in the Daily Mail......
).regarding the rest of your post i have to agree. reading some of what is posted i have to wonder if those posting have ever met a muslim never mind actually have any as friends or regular aquaintances .
wc98 said:
to be fair to jacko i don't think he puts much stock in the daily mail. looks to be one of the considered posters on these threads and puts a fair bit of serious thought into what he posts generally (certainly more than i tend to ).
regarding the rest of your post i have to agree. reading some of what is posted i have to wonder if those posting have ever met a muslim never mind actually have any as friends or regular aquaintances .
Oh I agree - I didn't mean him personally - more to people in general. ).regarding the rest of your post i have to agree. reading some of what is posted i have to wonder if those posting have ever met a muslim never mind actually have any as friends or regular aquaintances .
The point I'm trying to make is, it's easy to criticise people for not assimilating....but try and have a go yourself in a really foreign culture before castigating others.
Also, my findings from around the world have been most people (regardless of their religion or lack there of) are actually okay. There are always some dicks and at the moment for us it happens to be some Muslims being dickish...20 years ago it was the Irish trying to kill us, before that the Germans..etc ....etc...
I've met more horrible bloody football fans than I have nasty Muslims. You just can't tar everyone with the same brush.
Germans have had a go at being pro active, rather than reactive today: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-28/german-sp...
jdw100 said:
Oh I agree - I didn't mean him personally - more to people in general.
The point I'm trying to make is, it's easy to criticise people for not assimilating....but try and have a go yourself in a really foreign culture before castigating others.
Also, my findings from around the world have been most people (regardless of their religion or lack there of) are actually okay. There are always some dicks and at the moment for us it happens to be some Muslims being dickish...20 years ago it was the Irish trying to kill us, before that the Germans..etc ....etc...
I've met more horrible bloody football fans than I have nasty Muslims. You just can't tar everyone with the same brush.
As an immigrant here (well, not anymore if my passport is to be believed) I personally try my best to integrate anywhere where I happen to live at the time. My experience of living (not just visiting) quite a few countries is same as yours. You'll have dicks who'll call you 'auslander' but they are such minority, and invariably deadbeat losers, that you just smile and dismiss them. The point I'm trying to make is, it's easy to criticise people for not assimilating....but try and have a go yourself in a really foreign culture before castigating others.
Also, my findings from around the world have been most people (regardless of their religion or lack there of) are actually okay. There are always some dicks and at the moment for us it happens to be some Muslims being dickish...20 years ago it was the Irish trying to kill us, before that the Germans..etc ....etc...
I've met more horrible bloody football fans than I have nasty Muslims. You just can't tar everyone with the same brush.
jjlynn27 said:
As an immigrant here (well, not anymore if my passport is to be believed) I personally try my best to integrate anywhere where I happen to live at the time. My experience of living (not just visiting) quite a few countries is same as yours. You'll have dicks who'll call you 'auslander' but they are such minority, and invariably deadbeat losers, that you just smile and dismiss them.
Yep, I've been fortunate to work with quite a range of nationalities over the years. It's generally people who aren't succeeding in life that have a negative view of 'others'. I've got UK friends that are second and third generation from immigrants and some are as (or more) English than I am and some have kept some of the families culture. Whatever floats your boat......
A mate of mine in UK does this amazing dancing from her parents region of India, even gave up work for six months to take it to the top level....should she give that up as well as speaking her parents language when at their house?
Friends have married immigrants to the UK and I have friends that are immigrants that have married UK citizens.
Some of them are even Muslims!! It's probably all a very covert plot to kill us all in our beds.
rscott said:
Zoon said:
The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.
Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Where has simply complaining about how some dresses lead to a conviction for race crimes? The recent case involved physical contact and forced removal of the clothes.Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.
Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Re the bold comment - in a tiny fraction of Muslim countries, but the vast majority have no issues with building new churches - http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/showthread.php... . . It's pretty much only Saudi Arabia which forbid it.
In fact in some countries, Muslims even build the churches for the Christians - http://muslimnews.co.uk/news/south-asia/Pakistani-...
In many of these countries - where Christianity was the mainstream religion (or still practised by a large and significant minority of the population) until fairly recently (in some cases as recent as 40 years ago) - the barriers to obtaining permission even to assemble as Christians in a pace of worship, before you even start to to apply for the building a church, are very high. The bureaucracy is unreasonably complex and aimed to "discourage" freedom of expression or practice of any non-Muslim religion.
Likes Fast Cars said:
rscott said:
Zoon said:
The problem stems from being too tolerant of other ways of life.
Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.
Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Where has simply complaining about how some dresses lead to a conviction for race crimes? The recent case involved physical contact and forced removal of the clothes.Go to a muslim country dressed incorrectly and it's frowned upon.
Come here dress how you want and if anyone complains they get into trouble for race crimes.
Yet if I went to another country and started calling the shots about how I want to dress and building my own style of church I'd probably be sentenced to death.
Re the bold comment - in a tiny fraction of Muslim countries, but the vast majority have no issues with building new churches - http://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/showthread.php... . . It's pretty much only Saudi Arabia which forbid it.
In fact in some countries, Muslims even build the churches for the Christians - http://muslimnews.co.uk/news/south-asia/Pakistani-...
In many of these countries - where Christianity was the mainstream religion (or still practised by a large and significant minority of the population) until fairly recently (in some cases as recent as 40 years ago) - the barriers to obtaining permission even to assemble as Christians in a pace of worship, before you even start to to apply for the building a church, are very high. The bureaucracy is unreasonably complex and aimed to "discourage" freedom of expression or practice of any non-Muslim religion.
This isn't about immigration it's about religion.
The discussion that should be on the table imo is just how does religion have such a capacity to remove the humanity from people?
The wickedness that has been perpetrated over the years in the name of religion is beyond understanding.
Have a read about how some women and children were treated by the Christian Catholic church in Ireland until late into the 20th century. What they had in effect was numerous small concentration camps for children and young women, and the nuns were Nazis.
And the same abuse will still be happening right now as we speak wherever religion has a strong hold.
The discussion that should be on the table imo is just how does religion have such a capacity to remove the humanity from people?
The wickedness that has been perpetrated over the years in the name of religion is beyond understanding.
Have a read about how some women and children were treated by the Christian Catholic church in Ireland until late into the 20th century. What they had in effect was numerous small concentration camps for children and young women, and the nuns were Nazis.
And the same abuse will still be happening right now as we speak wherever religion has a strong hold.
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