Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK
Discussion
Mario149 said:
I never said it was a rose garden, there have been problems but overall it's been a success. If it was so clearly catastrophic we wouldn't be having this conversation. And countries still want to join. You seem to think that trying to do something on this scale is going to be without flaws and mistakes along the way. When the reality is anything of this magnitude is by it's very nature going to be imperfect. Then throw in the biggest financial downturn that the world has possibly ever had into the mix for some extra challenge.
As for peace in Europe. Who knows? You can't prove it is in spite of the EU and I can't prove that it's because of the EU. But I'd suggest that a whole load of countries connecting themselves by choice economically and politically in a peaceful manner to further trade and all the less measurable stuff like quality of life, human rights, justice etc did anything other than reduce the risk of conflict, I'd be very surprised.
If you judge the EU a success I would hate to see failure,mass youth unemployment and enforced austerity measures, as for countries wanting to join the EU how many will be contributing as much as the UK? Or better still will they be poor countries expecting to gain from joining.As for peace in Europe. Who knows? You can't prove it is in spite of the EU and I can't prove that it's because of the EU. But I'd suggest that a whole load of countries connecting themselves by choice economically and politically in a peaceful manner to further trade and all the less measurable stuff like quality of life, human rights, justice etc did anything other than reduce the risk of conflict, I'd be very surprised.
If the EU had not existed who do you envisaged going to war given the points I raised above?
jjlynn27 said:
Nothing on Reuters link? Ok.
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tbh there's limited mileage in the ping pong as you and I come from very different perspectives on this topic and I suspect one will never persuade the other. However......
"In an IFOP poll taken between June 28 and July 6, a few days after Britain's vote to leave the EU'...."But when people realise the real implications of an exit, there's new-found support for the European project,".
The latter sentence/summary from Francois Kraus, head of the political and current affairs service at IFOP. The "real implications" of Brexit are known 5-13 days after the referendum? Really?
Regardless it's a poll (of 1,000 people in each of six countries for a French EU think tank). What have we learnt about polls in the last 12mths? No one will know what the eventual outcomes are for a couple of years at least. Let us see what happens over that period and resurrect this then
jjlynn27 said:
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As for both historical context and cultural experiences; I was talking about EU in general vs row. Friendly/unfriendly has changed so many times, that in the light of this discussion is completely meaningless.
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I'm not really sure I understand what you're referring to. As for both historical context and cultural experiences; I was talking about EU in general vs row. Friendly/unfriendly has changed so many times, that in the light of this discussion is completely meaningless.
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Culturally the diversity of Europe has always been the biggest thing I've loved about it. Having so much variety right on our doorstep has always been a positive IMO. But we aren't the same across Europe. Never have been and never will be.
jjlynn27 said:
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You are not privy? You don't need to be privy. You can read about it. It's not like that people have kept what they think about Brexit to themselves. I'll give you a hint; Le Penn, Wilders and Trump. As per Reuters link, contrary to what many thought (and hoped?) here, it seems that brexit had completely opposite effect.
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As I noted, I couldn't care less what those guys think tbh. Their interests will rightly be for their own countrymen whether they think what this country voted for is positive or not. The job now is to get on with working out our position globally.You are not privy? You don't need to be privy. You can read about it. It's not like that people have kept what they think about Brexit to themselves. I'll give you a hint; Le Penn, Wilders and Trump. As per Reuters link, contrary to what many thought (and hoped?) here, it seems that brexit had completely opposite effect.
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jjlynn27 said:
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Soft/Hard message. Pretty meaningless; I don't see them bugging on FML <> true free access to sm. Whatever the deal is, large number of both remainers and leavers will be unhappy about it. But we should see that once we have any idea of what 'we' actually want.
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Maybe they won't, maybe they will. We don't know.Soft/Hard message. Pretty meaningless; I don't see them bugging on FML <> true free access to sm. Whatever the deal is, large number of both remainers and leavers will be unhappy about it. But we should see that once we have any idea of what 'we' actually want.
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I agree that there are going to be people unhappy with the final position. The result wasn't conclusive enough for anything else to happen. That's just how it goes (same as with the result itself). However we need to keep in mind that enough people were unhappy with the (not so) status quo that it forced the referendum in the first place. And was then backed up with a vote to leave (much to my surprise) despite all the powers the government could bring to bear and despite the notable people outside of the UK stating their views
So it's not like we were in a Utopian position anyway.As you say, let's see what happens. But the forensic analysis on a daily basis is meaningless.
Mario149 said:
Further to what I wrote above, imagine a future world where lots of countries have joined an expanded EU as they have met and maintained a minimum (but high level) of common legal, economic, living etc standards and that you could go and live and work completely freely anywhere in that union. In the same way that you may want to take a job in Italy now, you could go to say Japan, India, Oz, Iran, USA, Namibia, Argentina or wherever had been able to meet those standards and live/work there knowing that you'd have the same broad rights and privileges as you do in the UK? That's what the idea of a SM and FML mean to me as a goal to aim for...
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way 
Two other points...
1) Not all countries in the EU, even with just 28 states involved, are meeting all the standards laid out. I don't see adding more to the pot helping that position. Too many things get in the way and the differences are simply too great, no matter how much we might want to idealistically think otherwise.
2) I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
In a Utopian context its great. But very, very few nations practice this for very good reasons.
PRTVR said:
I do wish people would stop associating peace in Europe with the EU, who was going to go to war when the Americans had thousands of troops stationed in Germany along with a number of British troops, Germany would not invade France due to the simple fact France had Nuclear weapons, so who was going to go to war under the conditions that they could be wiped off the face of the earth?
Erm, I do want to rain on your parade: you might not have noticed that there have been wars in Europe since the ending of WWII and the start of the EU. Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Murph7355 said:
In a Utopian context its great. But very, very few nations practice this for very good reasons.
The main reason being that global FML would wipe out most of their indigenous workforce overnight. Mario's occupation being rather unusual, perhaps he'd be one of the lucky ones to keep his job
Murph7355 said:
tbh there's limited mileage in the ping pong as you and I come from very different perspectives on this topic and I suspect one will never persuade the other. However...
"In an IFOP poll taken between June 28 and July 6, a few days after Britain's vote to leave the EU'...."But when people realise the real implications of an exit, there's new-found support for the European project,".
The latter sentence/summary from Francois Kraus, head of the political and current affairs service at IFOP. The "real implications" of Brexit are known 5-13 days after the referendum? Really?
Regardless it's a poll (of 1,000 people in each of six countries for a French EU think tank). What have we learnt about polls in the last 12mths? No one will know what the eventual outcomes are for a couple of years at least. Let us see what happens over that period and resurrect this then
Not sure of your point. You didn't like Denmark link, and asked for other countries. It was provided, clearly showing that support for EU has increased since brexit. Now, it's a small sample. Do you have any link whatsoever (excluding express) that supports your position?"In an IFOP poll taken between June 28 and July 6, a few days after Britain's vote to leave the EU'...."But when people realise the real implications of an exit, there's new-found support for the European project,".
The latter sentence/summary from Francois Kraus, head of the political and current affairs service at IFOP. The "real implications" of Brexit are known 5-13 days after the referendum? Really?
Regardless it's a poll (of 1,000 people in each of six countries for a French EU think tank). What have we learnt about polls in the last 12mths? No one will know what the eventual outcomes are for a couple of years at least. Let us see what happens over that period and resurrect this then
Murph7355 said:
I'm not really sure I understand what you're referring to.
Culturally the diversity of Europe has always been the biggest thing I've loved about it. Having so much variety right on our doorstep has always been a positive IMO. But we aren't the same across Europe. Never have been and never will be.
Nobody said we are the same, so the 'we aren't the same across Europe' is meaningless. It was reference to cultural links. I feel that our culture has a lot more in common with other countries in Europe rather than countries elsewhere. I've spend a lot of time working in EU and States and no, it's not the same, not even close. Culturally the diversity of Europe has always been the biggest thing I've loved about it. Having so much variety right on our doorstep has always been a positive IMO. But we aren't the same across Europe. Never have been and never will be.
Murph7355 said:
As I noted, I couldn't care less what those guys think tbh. Their interests will rightly be for their own countrymen whether they think what this country voted for is positive or not. The job now is to get on with working out our position globally.
You don't care what countries, that we are looking to collaborate with think of our decisions? You don't care about our image abroad? Odd position, but you are welcome to it. If only certified racists and biggots think that what we've done is a good thing, I'd think that that would be cause for concern.Murph7355 said:
Maybe they won't, maybe they will. We don't know.
I agree that there are going to be people unhappy with the final position. The result wasn't conclusive enough for anything else to happen. That's just how it goes (same as with the result itself). However we need to keep in mind that enough people were unhappy with the (not so) status quo that it forced the referendum in the first place. And was then backed up with a vote to leave (much to my surprise) despite all the powers the government could bring to bear and despite the notable people outside of the UK stating their views So it's not like we were in a Utopian position anyway.
As you say, let's see what happens. But the forensic analysis on a daily basis is meaningless.
I agree that there are going to be people unhappy with the final position. The result wasn't conclusive enough for anything else to happen. That's just how it goes (same as with the result itself). However we need to keep in mind that enough people were unhappy with the (not so) status quo that it forced the referendum in the first place. And was then backed up with a vote to leave (much to my surprise) despite all the powers the government could bring to bear and despite the notable people outside of the UK stating their views
So it's not like we were in a Utopian position anyway.As you say, let's see what happens. But the forensic analysis on a daily basis is meaningless.
After all that, what do you think is a problem with FML where people who are coming here are required to get a job? What are the negative sides?
Derek Smith said:
PRTVR said:
I do wish people would stop associating peace in Europe with the EU, who was going to go to war when the Americans had thousands of troops stationed in Germany along with a number of British troops, Germany would not invade France due to the simple fact France had Nuclear weapons, so who was going to go to war under the conditions that they could be wiped off the face of the earth?
Erm, I do want to rain on your parade: you might not have noticed that there have been wars in Europe since the ending of WWII and the start of the EU. s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
tumble dryer said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
jjlynn27 said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Jimboka said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
s2art said:
Mrr T said:
Murph7355 said:
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way
I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
Other than via international transfer the nation's you quote operate work visa that mean it's almost impossible for get a visa unless you have in demand skills, this is normally medical or specific educational needs.I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
So please share with us how you managed to get work visa for these countries.
Jimboka said:
So this is the Australia points system that the Brexit liars strive to mimic. A country with more immigration than UK per capita. Makes perfect sense....Did to a few million anyway
Makes absolute sense to me, what is so hard to understand - controlled means as many or as few as you need.....why does that not make sense to you?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff