Brexit: EU considers migration ‘emergency brake’ for UK
Discussion
jjlynn27 said:
s2art said:
LOL. You really are a bit 'special'. You want to put a bet that there will not be trade deals in place with countries such as Oz or NZ within months of Brexit? And no, I never make things up.
Backpedalling now? You claimed that deals can be negotiated in few months. Or '5 minutes with USA'. It was stupid then, it's stupid now. You were even disagreeing with dir-gen of WTO on WTO options available to UK. So yes, you do make stuff up. 'Promising footballer sponsored by AUS football club, works as a barman, not because he can't make the ends meet, but because he enjoy social aspects'
(And he was told 'don't be thick!') Free quality entertainment.
Everything I wrote about my nephew is simple fact. And no, he worked as a barman in addition to the football to make sufficient money, as I said. No idea where you got the idea it was some social aspect. Stop making things up.
davepoth said:
The EU system is not a market solution. It's a political solution designed to integrate the people of Europe and break down cultural barriers to promote ever closer union. That's how the EU works.
Absolutely correct.It's the reason why the EU Federalists are unwilling to re-consider a policy which obviously doesn't suit several member states. In addition it's why they force it down the throats of non-EU European trading partners.
GoodOlBoy said:
davepoth said:
The EU system is not a market solution. It's a political solution designed to integrate the people of Europe and break down cultural barriers to promote ever closer union. That's how the EU works.
Absolutely correct.It's the reason why the EU Federalists are unwilling to re-consider a policy which obviously doesn't suit several member states. In addition it's why they force it down the throats of non-EU European trading partners.
I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
jjlynn27 said:
Seriously? It's not market solution? You get a job, you can stay, you don't get a job, you can't stay. It doesn't get more market solution than that.
I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
It's very simple and I've explained it previously. I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
Others understood it.
GoodOlBoy said:
jjlynn27 said:
Seriously? It's not market solution? You get a job, you can stay, you don't get a job, you can't stay. It doesn't get more market solution than that.
I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
It's very simple and I've explained it previously. I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
Others understood it.
Mrr T said:
So I have worked outside the UK via international tranfer. That's very different to applying locally and then getting a work visa. I have spoken in the past to recruitment agents in 2 of the 3 jurisdictions mentioned by the poster and I was advised it was not even worth applying for a local jobs.
The upside to that is that those with similar skills in that country have a chance to work in relatively without too much downward wage pressure. If they needed someone with the wealth of experience that you claim to have then they could justify hiring you versus a local candidate - which is pretty much what happened before we joined the EU and what happens now for non-EU. International transfer is a great way of moving to another job in that country - not to be overlooked.Edited by fido on Wednesday 27th July 22:49
PRTVR said:
Mario149 said:
I never said it was a rose garden, there have been problems but overall it's been a success. If it was so clearly catastrophic we wouldn't be having this conversation. And countries still want to join. You seem to think that trying to do something on this scale is going to be without flaws and mistakes along the way. When the reality is anything of this magnitude is by it's very nature going to be imperfect. Then throw in the biggest financial downturn that the world has possibly ever had into the mix for some extra challenge.
As for peace in Europe. Who knows? You can't prove it is in spite of the EU and I can't prove that it's because of the EU. But I'd suggest that a whole load of countries connecting themselves by choice economically and politically in a peaceful manner to further trade and all the less measurable stuff like quality of life, human rights, justice etc did anything other than reduce the risk of conflict, I'd be very surprised.
If you judge the EU a success I would hate to see failure,mass youth unemployment and enforced austerity measures, as for countries wanting to join the EU how many will be contributing as much as the UK? Or better still will they be poor countries expecting to gain from joining.As for peace in Europe. Who knows? You can't prove it is in spite of the EU and I can't prove that it's because of the EU. But I'd suggest that a whole load of countries connecting themselves by choice economically and politically in a peaceful manner to further trade and all the less measurable stuff like quality of life, human rights, justice etc did anything other than reduce the risk of conflict, I'd be very surprised.
If the EU had not existed who do you envisaged going to war given the points I raised above?
As for other countries joining, I can only speculate as to why they want to join as you do, one suspects it's more for the trade opportunities to grow themselves than a few handouts. The difference is, I see that bringing other countries standards up benefits us all, just as if one of our deprived areas of the country was reinvigorated.
As for the war thing again, neither of us has a crystal ball and my point still stands: if you think that 28 nations coming together voluntarily in an economic and political union increases the risk of armed conflict between them, I think you better look again and while you're at it you better tell Germany and Italy that for their own good they need to go back to being their old mish mash of Duchies and Principalities as it was clearly more peaceful back then.
Murph7355 said:
Mario149 said:
Further to what I wrote above, imagine a future world where lots of countries have joined an expanded EU as they have met and maintained a minimum (but high level) of common legal, economic, living etc standards and that you could go and live and work completely freely anywhere in that union. In the same way that you may want to take a job in Italy now, you could go to say Japan, India, Oz, Iran, USA, Namibia, Argentina or wherever had been able to meet those standards and live/work there knowing that you'd have the same broad rights and privileges as you do in the UK? That's what the idea of a SM and FML mean to me as a goal to aim for...
It sounds lovely as all Utopian dreams do. Unfortunately people get in the way 
Two other points...
1) Not all countries in the EU, even with just 28 states involved, are meeting all the standards laid out. I don't see adding more to the pot helping that position. Too many things get in the way and the differences are simply too great, no matter how much we might want to idealistically think otherwise.
2) I consider myself very fortunate to have worked and lived in Japan, Oz, and the USA from your list and a number of other countries on top. It was straightforward and hugely enjoyable and rewarding (socially as much as anything). FML is not needed to facilitate this.
In a Utopian context its great. But very, very few nations practice this for very good reasons.
Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
GoodOlBoy said:
Murph7355 said:
In a Utopian context its great. But very, very few nations practice this for very good reasons.
The main reason being that global FML would wipe out most of their indigenous workforce overnight. Mario's occupation being rather unusual, perhaps he'd be one of the lucky ones to keep his job
jjlynn27 said:
GoodOlBoy said:
davepoth said:
The EU system is not a market solution. It's a political solution designed to integrate the people of Europe and break down cultural barriers to promote ever closer union. That's how the EU works.
Absolutely correct.It's the reason why the EU Federalists are unwilling to re-consider a policy which obviously doesn't suit several member states. In addition it's why they force it down the throats of non-EU European trading partners.
I'm still waiting to hear what's people problem with FML rather than FMP?
The problem is that the UK as a country has an obligation to its citizens to keep them safe, both in terms of stopping terrorists from blowing them up, and in respect of making sure they have the opportunities to provide from themselves and their families. Uncontrolled migration does not allow them to do this.
Free movement of labour suits a couple of groups - those whose horizons are broad but their finances are limited, and those with a lot of money.
If you come from a poorer country and really want to better yourself, it's a great opportunity. Come to the UK, use the English you've been learning since you were three, and get the opportunity to earn what would be an amazing salary back home.
If you are already wealthy it just removes an inconvenience.
However, if you are poor, from a rich country, and unable to relocate for any reason, free movement of labour screws you over. And it's those people that our government is supposed to be helping.
davepoth said:
However, if you are poor, from a rich country, and unable to relocate for any reason, free movement of labour screws you over. And it's those people that our government is supposed to be helping.
Except downward wage pressure has been showed to be marginal at worst (fractions of a percent per 10% or so increase in foreigners in a job market) and overall we just saw the highest rates of employment in about the last 25 years as far as I can see (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate)Poor people in this country are not shafted because of FML, they're shafted because of historically poor government decisions.
Mario149 said:
davepoth said:
However, if you are poor, from a rich country, and unable to relocate for any reason, free movement of labour screws you over. And it's those people that our government is supposed to be helping.
Except downward wage pressure has been showed to be marginal at worst (fractions of a percent per 10% or so increase in foreigners in a job market) and overall we just saw the highest rates of employment in about the last 25 years as far as I can see (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/unemployment-rate)Poor people in this country are not shafted because of FML, they're shafted because of historically poor government decisions.
Mario149 said:
Of course people get in the way, but you don't think we should try for it? And if adding new countries now or in the future did not appear to be beneficial we wouldn't have had to so it's a bit of a non-argument.
Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
The problem is what do you consider as beneficial and who is it beneficial for ? if you are talking about the ideals of the EU that makes sense, of bring in everybody to a low level I understand that, take Romania, what benefits did they bring? begging on the streets, increased prison population, non tax paying car washes, its all about power, the more counties in the EU the more power the EU has, they do not care who they let in they just fiddle the figures till they fit, just look at Greece.Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
Wonderful you can move easily to Spain and get a job, but the consequences may be that the firm who employs you do not need to train a young person to do the job, leading to increased youth unemployment, something Spain has enough of, but that doesn't matter as I am all right eh ?
ATG said:
This is the key point. We don't have to speculate about the impact of FML on employment and wages. There is empirical evidence.
Indeed there is TheMigrationobservatory said:
If the skills of migrants and existing workers are substitutes, immigration can be expected to increase competition in the labour market and drive down wages in the short run. The closer the substitute, the greater the adverse wage effects will be. Whether and to what extent declining wages increase unemployment or inactivity among existing workers depends on their willingness to accept the new lower wages. If, on the other hand, the skills of migrants are complementary to those of existing workers, all workers experience increased productivity which can be expected to lead to a rise in the wages of existing workers.
You might even say it is an argument for a points based immigration system....http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings...
Mrr T said:
So you finally say it you worked in those countries via international transfer for your employer. You did not go and find a job directly and then get a work visa. So very different to FMOL in the EU where I can apply for any job directly.
As for controlled immigrantion I assume you mean a bady run, inefficient and expensively scheme run by the government. As to the current EU FMOL which is a market solution. Efficient and cheap.
The intent of my original post on the topic was to note that if you have skills that are required, working abroad is not insurmountably difficult. FML is not required to do it.As for controlled immigrantion I assume you mean a bady run, inefficient and expensively scheme run by the government. As to the current EU FMOL which is a market solution. Efficient and cheap.
FML may be "efficient and cheap" but I'm not convinced these are the only criteria that should be considered where a nation's workforce is concerned. An individual's desire to work in a foreign country (for whatever reason) should not trump that country's needs.
davepoth said:
This may sound a little racist to some, but never mind.
Can't speak for others but doesn't sound racist to me at all. davepoth said:
The problem is that the UK as a country has an obligation to its citizens to keep them safe, both in terms of stopping terrorists from blowing them up, and in respect of making sure they have the opportunities to provide from themselves and their families. Uncontrolled migration does not allow them to do this.
And yet, the only terrorist attack that I can remember was 7/7. Homegrown. Even if you blocked immigration completely you wouldn't stop that. Arguably, such policy could be used by homegrown numpties to further their goals. davepoth said:
Free movement of labour suits a couple of groups - those whose horizons are broad but their finances are limited, and those with a lot of money.
If you come from a poorer country and really want to better yourself, it's a great opportunity. Come to the UK, use the English you've been learning since you were three, and get the opportunity to earn what would be an amazing salary back home. If you are already wealthy it just removes an inconvenience.
Excellent, with proviso that you can't stay if you are iliquid / don't get a job, what's the problem? If native person can't get the job, with all the advantages of playing on the 'home turf', I fail to muster significant sympathy. In my job, I compete with people all over the world. No protection at all. As market approach as it gets. I can whine about how it's not fair, or I can better myself and give employers what they want at a price point that they are prepared to pay. If you come from a poorer country and really want to better yourself, it's a great opportunity. Come to the UK, use the English you've been learning since you were three, and get the opportunity to earn what would be an amazing salary back home. If you are already wealthy it just removes an inconvenience.
davepoth said:
However, if you are poor, from a rich country, and unable to relocate for any reason, free movement of labour screws you over. And it's those people that our government is supposed to be helping.
Define 'screws you over'? You still have the advantage of support links, you know the system, you speak native language. JagLover said:
ATG said:
This is the key point. We don't have to speculate about the impact of FML on employment and wages. There is empirical evidence.
Indeed there is TheMigrationobservatory said:
If the skills of migrants and existing workers are substitutes, immigration can be expected to increase competition in the labour market and drive down wages in the short run. The closer the substitute, the greater the adverse wage effects will be. Whether and to what extent declining wages increase unemployment or inactivity among existing workers depends on their willingness to accept the new lower wages. If, on the other hand, the skills of migrants are complementary to those of existing workers, all workers experience increased productivity which can be expected to lead to a rise in the wages of existing workers.
You might even say it is an argument for a points based immigration system....http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings...
Mario149 said:
Of course people get in the way, but you don't think we should try for it? And if adding new countries now or in the future did not appear to be beneficial we wouldn't have had to so it's a bit of a non-argument.
Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
There are many Utopian dreams I think we should work towards, but we need to ensure we aren't fiddling while Rome burns.Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
Your latter paragraph hints at the less positive side of immigration IMO. Wanting to go over to another country but not integrate/conform to what your host wants/needs ("we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements") is not positive immigration in my view. And your summary seems to be that FML is beneficial as it allows people to do whatever they want regardless of whether that's deemed positive by their new host. I may have misread your intent. But to me that's simply not a good enough reason to accept FML.
PRTVR said:
Mario149 said:
Of course people get in the way, but you don't think we should try for it? And if adding new countries now or in the future did not appear to be beneficial we wouldn't have had to so it's a bit of a non-argument.
Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
The problem is what do you consider as beneficial and who is it beneficial for ? if you are talking about the ideals of the EU that makes sense, of bring in everybody to a low level I understand that, take Romania, what benefits did they bring? begging on the streets, increased prison population, non tax paying car washes, its all about power, the more counties in the EU the more power the EU has, they do not care who they let in they just fiddle the figures till they fit, just look at Greece.Funny you should mention being able to live and work in Oz and the USA - those are 2 places that my partner and I have investigated to move to for work and found we could not without seriously re-aligning our jobs/life to meet visa requirements. Conversely, we could move to Spain tomorrow and we'd have to change nothing about our current jobs etc. In fact we're considering doing a trial 4-6 months there sometime in the medium term future to try it out. So I'm sorry but FML is beneficial, even if not so much for you.
Wonderful you can move easily to Spain and get a job, but the consequences may be that the firm who employs you do not need to train a young person to do the job, leading to increased youth unemployment, something Spain has enough of, but that doesn't matter as I am all right eh ?
As for Spain, actually no. My job would still be in the UK, but due to freedom of movement, I can live there and work in the UK. And if I'm there for longer than 6 months, they get my income tax etc as well
Murph7355 said:
...eventually (5-10yrs I suspect) it'll be like we were never in the EU (aside from those in this country who continue to sulk that a vote didn't go their way ).
The whining will never stop! I only wonder if Brexit will take over from Thatcher or if she can cling on to the blame for everything another decade or two. ).Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff