Conversion to religion
Discussion
scenario8 said:
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, to be honest. If you want to define "no previous religious influence at all" in any way approaching literally then I imagine yes, you are right. Well done. You've won on the Internet. I imagine it would be practically impossible for any human (beyond a tiny handful cases of terrible sadness) not to be exposed to any religious influences at all prior to adulthood.
For most sensible people the concept of finding faith in adulthood is a relatively common occurance.
For most sensible people the concept of finding faith in adulthood is a relatively common occurance.
Anyone who believes in any flavour of imaginary friend in the sky ought to seek psychiatric help IMO. I'm no spring chicken, been an atheist all my adult life and that will never change no matter what the future brings for me.
I've never been able to get my head around how allegedly intelligent people can believe in this fairy tale stuff, especially in the enlightened scientific age in which we live.
Bonkers, all of it.
Derek Smith said:
All religions require suspension of logic. They require that you believe for no reason. It is twisting a person's mind. They are lied to. There is no evidence of an afterlife so the person suggesting it as a reward is telling fibs.
However, my specific point was to criticise those predatory religions that hunt for the vulnerable. I'm sure we could all name them but as money acquisition seems their only intent, it is best not to put money into Haymarket's lawyers' pockets.
I am in no way religious but I pay regularly into the funds of the Sally Ann. I've seen the work they do with those whom no one else seems to care about. I once had to deal with a woman who had attacked her sister, so no complainant. She wasn't a serious danger to herself or others so she could not be taken to the nick. I went to two 'established' religions and was turned away, ironically just like the bible, then I remembered a couple who were in the Sally Ann. They took the woman into their house at 2am or so.
In the wee smalls the SA would be down on the Embankment dishing out tea and food to the bottom rung.
I've never seen anyone acting in their role as a Salvation Army bod ever try to convert in the same way as those at the stations used to.
I was at a fire. One of the biggest in the City since the Smithfield Great BBQ. Plantation House, a whole block, was destroyed. More than 100 fire appliances turned up over the course of the fire. The fire brigade service truck turned up but had little stock. The Sally Ann one came along and didn't charge - firemen don't carry money in their pockets at a fire. When I asked how much for water - you wouldn't believe the smoke - I asked how much they wanted and they said they supplied the needy and at that time I needed them.
No religion stuffed down throats, just assistance when needed.
So I'm not anti religious, just anti religion. If you're going after the vulnerable because they are open to persuasion and not because you want to help them, then I'm against you as well.
The SA are the only religious group I'm happy to support for the same reason as Derek, I've seen them help the bottom of the heap without any attempt to push religion.However, my specific point was to criticise those predatory religions that hunt for the vulnerable. I'm sure we could all name them but as money acquisition seems their only intent, it is best not to put money into Haymarket's lawyers' pockets.
I am in no way religious but I pay regularly into the funds of the Sally Ann. I've seen the work they do with those whom no one else seems to care about. I once had to deal with a woman who had attacked her sister, so no complainant. She wasn't a serious danger to herself or others so she could not be taken to the nick. I went to two 'established' religions and was turned away, ironically just like the bible, then I remembered a couple who were in the Sally Ann. They took the woman into their house at 2am or so.
In the wee smalls the SA would be down on the Embankment dishing out tea and food to the bottom rung.
I've never seen anyone acting in their role as a Salvation Army bod ever try to convert in the same way as those at the stations used to.
I was at a fire. One of the biggest in the City since the Smithfield Great BBQ. Plantation House, a whole block, was destroyed. More than 100 fire appliances turned up over the course of the fire. The fire brigade service truck turned up but had little stock. The Sally Ann one came along and didn't charge - firemen don't carry money in their pockets at a fire. When I asked how much for water - you wouldn't believe the smoke - I asked how much they wanted and they said they supplied the needy and at that time I needed them.
No religion stuffed down throats, just assistance when needed.
So I'm not anti religious, just anti religion. If you're going after the vulnerable because they are open to persuasion and not because you want to help them, then I'm against you as well.
Moonhawk said:
T5XARV said:
A dear friend of mine lost his father recently following a battle with cancer. He tells me that in his final months he had found God, and had gained much comfort in doing so.
This was a man who lived his entire life as an atheist.
I think that is what is known as "hedging your bets".This was a man who lived his entire life as an atheist.
Live your life free from the shackles of religious dogma - when you are at deaths door convert and confess your sins.....just in case.
What have you got to lose.
I don't think I know anyone who has become religious. I know a couple of who seem to have become more religious - one almost certainly to their personal detriment, one probably not.
We are communal creatures living increasingly isolated lives so I can see an appeal of religion in the sense of community and support (although I've seen the illusion of the latter collapse when tested). As a sort of hobby it makes sense, for the same reasons people take up slot-car racing or bowling later in life.
I was given a slightly half-hearted dose of religion at school but have never really understood what it's for. I can't think of a gap in my life that religion would fill now, so it's difficult to imagine why that would change as I get older.
We are communal creatures living increasingly isolated lives so I can see an appeal of religion in the sense of community and support (although I've seen the illusion of the latter collapse when tested). As a sort of hobby it makes sense, for the same reasons people take up slot-car racing or bowling later in life.
I was given a slightly half-hearted dose of religion at school but have never really understood what it's for. I can't think of a gap in my life that religion would fill now, so it's difficult to imagine why that would change as I get older.
Berw said:
I've lived in a Muslim country for 20 years I know loads of people who have converted to Islam, they all did exactly that they 'converted', they all had a religion before
Do you think that's more to do with having an easier life and opening more doors than religion itself? I can imagine the appeal would be far greater to sign-up if you're a minority (of any flavour).rovermorris999 said:
The SA are the only religious group I'm happy to support for the same reason as Derek, I've seen them help the bottom of the heap without any attempt to push religion.
Here's a little trick that's fun and you get your money's worth.See the average number of people who put into the collecting tin. Wait until a line of people are approaching the collector and then go up and put money in the tin and thank the person. As you walk away smile at the group and say something positive about the collector/Sally Ann/weather etc. In most cases two or three from the group will get money out. Others coming along behind, on seeing the short queue, will as well.
It is as dependable as the driver of a car you are overtaking accelerating.
On a cold day in Haywards Heath I asked one of their collector outside Neros if he wanted a hot drink. I bought him a tea and stood with him while we both drank our warming brews. I would stare at those approaching him. The contribution rate went up considerably. I thought of hiring myself out on a percentage basis but it was too cold.
Derek Smith said:
rovermorris999 said:
The SA are the only religious group I'm happy to support for the same reason as Derek, I've seen them help the bottom of the heap without any attempt to push religion.
Here's a little trick that's fun and you get your money's worth.See the average number of people who put into the collecting tin. Wait until a line of people are approaching the collector and then go up and put money in the tin and thank the person. As you walk away smile at the group and say something positive about the collector/Sally Ann/weather etc. In most cases two or three from the group will get money out. Others coming along behind, on seeing the short queue, will as well.
It is as dependable as the driver of a car you are overtaking accelerating.
On a cold day in Haywards Heath I asked one of their collector outside Neros if he wanted a hot drink. I bought him a tea and stood with him while we both drank our warming brews. I would stare at those approaching him. The contribution rate went up considerably. I thought of hiring myself out on a percentage basis but it was too cold.
Has a ring to it
Derek Smith said:
All religions require suspension of logic. They require that you believe for no reason. It is twisting a person's mind. They are lied to. There is no evidence of an afterlife so the person suggesting it as a reward is telling fibs.
It is ironic that you employ a classic logical fallacy with your last sentence, given that abandoning logic is apparently your primary criticism of religion. It is not a very good criticism in any case.As an adult I know a few people who have discovered a religion. My experience is that they were drawn primarily by the community and a similar set of values.
I am an atheist personally.
Life is meaningless, if there is a higher power or something it doesn't seem to be conscious and receptive to suggestions so all the praying, seems like a waste of time, may as well spend the time to do something useful or help someone else, all that time humanity has wasted praying adds up.
All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a
, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.
Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a
, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
J4CKO said:
Life is meaningless, if there is a higher power or something it doesn't seem to be conscious and receptive to suggestions so all the praying, seems like a waste of time, may as well spend the time to do something useful or help someone else, all that time humanity has wasted praying adds up.
All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.
Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
Well said.All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a
, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
LeighW said:
My elderly Aunt, who had never been religious when she was younger, now goes to church every Sunday. Basically, she's scared of death as, I suspect, many of us are. I call it 'booking your place'. It obviously gives her some comfort, so why not.
Those people worry me more than anyone else. They obviously haven't thought about the implications of an eternal afterlife. It is the most scary concept anyone has ever thought of.Imagine the biggest number you can... And then imagine raising it to the power of itself a trillion times. Now imagine living for this number of years. This isn't even scratching the surface of eternity.
Try and understand something like Grahams Number if you really want to understand the true horror of the concept of heaven.
Tom Logan said:
J4CKO said:
Life is meaningless, if there is a higher power or something it doesn't seem to be conscious and receptive to suggestions so all the praying, seems like a waste of time, may as well spend the time to do something useful or help someone else, all that time humanity has wasted praying adds up.
All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.
Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
Well said.All the daft rules about Pork, especially in light of the facts that Bacon is rather magical and it doesnt actually do you any harm is what gets me.
Same with Sex, as long as it is consensual and within the legal framework then crack on, hetero, homo, solo whatever makes you happy, as often as you can manage.
Alcohol, its bad, but just realise less is more and take it easy.
Drugs, the same, will always be an equal or opposite effect, ok it isnt legal but should be up to the individual.
And dont be a
, society has a massive pot of hate and angry, dont add to it, be nice, do favours, pay compliments, not to please some non existent entity, so you can sleep at night.Believe in karma, even though it doesnt exist, generally being pleasant means people reciprocate.
Sod gods, angels, prophets, churches and all that, just have community centres where anyone can go and use it for whatever (legal Purpose) and forget not being able to use it because you are not one of our "club", all one club, humans.
try not to drink (my choice) I dont use drugs (my choice) and I dont park over my neighbours parking space even when mine is used by a 3rd party etcI just try an not be too offensive most of the time an most of the time I see that in others....god has f all to do with it
Fitz666 said:
Surely if there really was a god there would only be one religion?
no, there is only one that is the true way !Just nobody knows which one, actually, no, I regard them all as equally b
ks, especially after you remove the "be nice" bit and Bill and Ted managed that in 1989, and even upgraded it to "Be Excellent".I dont consider myself a Christian, I dont follow Christ, I dont pray, I dont read the bible but my wife was telling me that I am as I was christened one, I reject all religion and am an Atheist.
“I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.”
Kurt Vonnegut
I subscribe to this, Pokemon Go is farting about, everyone moaning about it how it is so frivolous and trivial, so are the arts, so is music, so is most of the stuff we do but if someone enjoys it and it doesnt hurt anyone else, enjoy, it passes the time, we cant all be engaged on worthy things, all the time, we need stuff to distract us from the futility.
I am working on the fact I am here now and then will die at some point in the next minute to 45 years, I am not important, significant or anything, I do not need to leave a legacy, there are seven billion people alive at the moment, all matter to the same pathetic degree and will die, in the meantime, try and enjoy it, it can be fun, funny and enjoyable.
however, religion, stop that, as really, i dont think most of you enjoy it, especially those born into it that cant leave, I think that means that there is the desire to propagate it, a bit like new parents badger childless friends, not for a joy of parenthood, more because they are jealous and why the f
k why should we deal with all this crap when they dont have to, at least parenthood offers some reward though. Religion, just seems to be mass obsessive compulsive disorder to me and if you enjoy it (and dont actively hate or resent it like I suspect a lot lumbered with it do) crack on but I dont want to join, no thanks, you get on with it, knock yourself out.Nobody knows the purpose for existence, do we actually exist, is it an illusion and why would some being exist and created these flawed creatures only to allegedly forgive and punish them all the bloody time, and then send them to "hell" if they dont tow the line ?
C.S. Lewis was an atheist who became a Christian.
I haven't "found God" but I have softened in my atheism,. 10 years ago I was fairly avid reader of Christopher Hitchens and others. A few things conspired to make me drop the Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff and take a more circumspect view.
It's not about a divine creator in human form in the clouds, directing human life from some central control room. It's more about cultural continuity, a sense of humility about the things we don't know, and a recognition that even the best of our logic can be fallible.
I haven't "found God" but I have softened in my atheism,. 10 years ago I was fairly avid reader of Christopher Hitchens and others. A few things conspired to make me drop the Flying Spaghetti Monster stuff and take a more circumspect view.
It's not about a divine creator in human form in the clouds, directing human life from some central control room. It's more about cultural continuity, a sense of humility about the things we don't know, and a recognition that even the best of our logic can be fallible.
BigLion said:
AJL308 said:
battered said:
Derek Smith said:
. Having your body messed with was seen as bad whereas having your mind twisted was not.
Nice display of your prejudices there. All religion is twisting people's minds, is it? Very well reasoned.What is rational about some bloke building a massive boat which was able to hold two of every creature on earth because said deity got pissed with everyone and decided to murder them?
What is remotely rational about wanting to murder people because they do a drawing of the deity you worship?
God does not exist. Saying that it does IS irrational.
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