Conversion to religion
Discussion
///ajd said:
Jesus refere to the OT often - notably in Luke 17:29 where he refers to the fate of Sodom.
Most would agree that what the bible says was going on there, which resulted in God destroying everyone involved, pretty much. Not really a message of tolerance.
Ah now we're getting a bit less milky and a bit more meaty! The notion (well understood by Jews, especially from a couple of millennia BC) of returning something to God by destroying it. (This requires some study to grasp because it is not a commonplace understanding of 21st century West Europeans).Most would agree that what the bible says was going on there, which resulted in God destroying everyone involved, pretty much. Not really a message of tolerance.
Have you read Lot's story? How much 'love thy neighbour' do you think there was in the mob who wanted to rape him? And remember, God was only willing to destroy them all if NOT EVEN ONE good human being could be found there. Best thing for it many would say. Compare the sodomites to the good samaritan. Love thy neighbour versus hate your neighbour.
gadgetmac said:
I applaud your good character though drainbrain but feel you would have been this way had you been born a muslim, hindu or even an Atheist.
LOL! Good? Only God is good….We're (Christians) also encouraged to avoid pointless dispute so even the very fact of contributing to this thread is disobedience (because it is a waste of time which is not what life is for). But all this perception of God as Bad Santa and faith as a negative imaginary thing is a bit depressing. Not that "arguing" about it and trying to illuminate it a bit has any point. It doesn't. Sadly I'm a rotten evangelist, though I wish I wasn't as faith is so satisfying. Probably the only thing in life that really is truly and lastingly satisfying. It's like being the fat kid with a bag of delicious sweets that you're unable to share with all the scrawny kids who don't know what a sweetie even tastes like, never mind a delicious one!
drainbrain said:
faith is so satisfying. Probably the only thing in life that really is truly and lastingly satisfying.
I you believe that, I think you need to change your life. I haven't had faith since I was a child, and have (thus far) had a pretty good life. Certainly aspects of it that have been long lasting and satisfying. I sometime wonder, if there is a god, given that I don't believe in him, why I've been dealt such a good hand so far. He clearly has a soft spot for atheists.
drainbrain said:
Ah now we're getting a bit less milky and a bit more meaty! The notion (well understood by Jews, especially from a couple of millennia BC) of returning something to God by destroying it. (This requires some study to grasp because it is not a commonplace understanding of 21st century West Europeans).
Have you read Lot's story? How much 'love thy neighbour' do you think there was in the mob who wanted to rape him? And remember, God was only willing to destroy them all if NOT EVEN ONE good human being could be found there. Best thing for it many would say. Compare the sodomites to the good samaritan. Love thy neighbour versus hate your neighbour.
I have to confess Lot's story is a bit of a strange one.Have you read Lot's story? How much 'love thy neighbour' do you think there was in the mob who wanted to rape him? And remember, God was only willing to destroy them all if NOT EVEN ONE good human being could be found there. Best thing for it many would say. Compare the sodomites to the good samaritan. Love thy neighbour versus hate your neighbour.
The blokes at his door appear to want to have man love with his guests - infact Lot offers up his virgin daughters (who he later has incest with) to the mob instead which seems a tad strange - his guests turn out to be angels who will subsequently destroy the city due it seems to all the man love going on.
Lot seems to be given the all clear as having done "nothing wrong" but his offering his daughters for a shag and then shagging them himself and having kids with them does seem a bit worse than what is purported to be the bigger sin - man love.
I am no expert on this as you can tell but the moral compass here seems a bit wonky, no?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
drainbrain said:
faith is so satisfying. Probably the only thing in life that really is truly and lastingly satisfying.
I you believe that, I think you need to change your life. I haven't had faith since I was a child, and have (thus far) had a pretty good life. Certainly aspects of it that have been long lasting and satisfying. I sometime wonder, if there is a god, given that I don't believe in him, why I've been dealt such a good hand so far. He clearly has a soft spot for atheists.
Faith answers so many questions in a definite fashion. All us apostates are left with is uncertainty.
davepoth said:
If you had absolute confidence and belief that an almighty power had a plan for you, was looking after you, and will give you an infinite future of comfort provided you live a decent life here on earth, wouldn't you feel pretty bloody satisfied? I know I would.
Faith answers so many questions in a definite fashion. All us apostates are left with is uncertainty.
That is one reason wy I feel a little bad talking with Christians about their religion. On one hand I have a lot of opinions on why Christianity is, for lack of a better term, "wrong". But then smashing up someone's belief in what give their life meaning isn't a particularly nice thing to do either. It's like talking to Shallow Hal about his girlfriend.Faith answers so many questions in a definite fashion. All us apostates are left with is uncertainty.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
drainbrain said:
faith is so satisfying. Probably the only thing in life that really is truly and lastingly satisfying.
I you believe that, I think you need to change your life. I haven't had faith since I was a child, and have (thus far) had a pretty good life. Certainly aspects of it that have been long lasting and satisfying. I sometime wonder, if there is a god, given that I don't believe in him, why I've been dealt such a good hand so far. He clearly has a soft spot for atheists.
Come on. We've all been blessed with a good life. We're in the small fraction whose life isn't plagued with abject nightmare. But you've never been blessed with any spiritual awareness never mind satisfaction to the point where you now don't believe that such things even exist!! That leaves a big empty hole in your life. No spiritual dimension to it at all. That isn't good, it's sad! And that hole requires endless efforts to fill. Materialism doesn't do it. Emotion and relationships can a bit, but are only sporadically deeply satisfying. Intellectuality can't do it either as it's as endlessly restless as success and actually never gets to the point of satisfaction.
The secret is that only true faith produces the fulfilment of man's craving for satisfaction, because that craving all men feel can only be fulfilled by faith!
And how the hell can anyone be expected to explain that to someone who is determined that faith and God are fantasies!!
You call that being blessed? I call it being offered a Euro rollover jackpot winning ticket and rejecting it because it just can't be true….can it??
davepoth said:
If you had absolute confidence and belief that an almighty power had a plan for you, was looking after you, and will give you an infinite future of comfort provided you live a decent life here on earth, wouldn't you feel pretty bloody satisfied? I know I would.
Faith answers so many questions in a definite fashion. All us apostates are left with is uncertainty.
O my goodness!Faith answers so many questions in a definite fashion. All us apostates are left with is uncertainty.
Ok, it's not really about 'living a decent life' (which is just what comes naturally to people of faith) and you certainly can't 'work your way to heaven' by good works as a certain ahem, tricky cousin system to Christianity believes…..
….but if you understand what you obviously do understand, what's stopping you exploring it a bit more? You're not 6 inches away from it.
gadgetmac said:
Dropping Back a step do you know that are zero contemporaneous reports of Jesus existence? Nobody at the time of his supposed life ever wrote one word about him. Not even Pilot. Neither is there any archeological evidence for him. The earliest known writings about this 'son of god' come decades later and then from Christians who want to promote Christianity.
Try looking at this: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/0...
glazbagun said:
That is one reason wy I feel a little bad talking with Christians about their religion. On one hand I have a lot of opinions on why Christianity is, for lack of a better term, "wrong". But then smashing up someone's belief in what give their life meaning isn't a particularly nice thing to do either. It's like talking to Shallow Hal about his girlfriend.
You're another. Not far away at all. But don't think you can undo a believer's faith. You can't. You can't browbeat it out, bribe it out or even torture it out. Can't be done. Of course, the Parable of the Sower explains this and why shallow faith can wither. But really well rooted faith? Impossible!drainbrain said:
The secret is that only true faith produces the fulfilment of man's craving for satisfaction, because that craving all men feel can only be fulfilled by faith!
Sorry but that's nonsense. It satisfies a human need for explaining the irrational, that's all. That works for some people but not all.
If something awful happens to a loved one - as happens whether religious or not - you can use faith to convince yourself it's part of a plan. This helps people come to terms with things so that they can make sense of the utterly chaotic reality of nature. But let's be clear, there's absolutely no correlation between prayer and events, between the faithful and personal circumstances.
I think it also satisfies our instinctive need for parental figures in our life, as they also fulfil that same role of explaining things that seem incomprehensible.
But the only explanation that makes sense is that mother nature is in charge. Her actions are pure chaos, and she doesn't give a monkeys about whether we live a happy life or a horrific one.
I'm pleased you seem content with your choices but it seems extremely naive to think faith is giving you something you couldn't get via other means. Try travel, music, love, family and helping people. They can all bring great satisfaction too.
oop north said:
gadgetmac said:
Dropping Back a step do you know that are zero contemporaneous reports of Jesus existence? Nobody at the time of his supposed life ever wrote one word about him. Not even Pilot. Neither is there any archeological evidence for him. The earliest known writings about this 'son of god' come decades later and then from Christians who want to promote Christianity.
Try looking at this: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/0...
Hearsay in a court of law is rightly described as not worth taking into account as you yourself would be aghast if convicted on the basis of hearsay only.
Nobody who was alive during the time of Jesus wrote 1 single word about him. Strange no?
gadgetmac said:
Nobody who was alive during the time of Jesus wrote 1 single word about him. Strange no?
The Gospels are eyewitness accounts and are all about him. However, and more interestingly, what about the people who lived (and died) long before him who wrote about him? Like David the Psalmist for example? Or Isaiah?
drainbrain said:
O my goodness!
Ok, it's not really about 'living a decent life' (which is just what comes naturally to people of faith) and you certainly can't 'work your way to heaven' by good works as a certain ahem, tricky cousin system to Christianity believes…..
….but if you understand what you obviously do understand, what's stopping you exploring it a bit more? You're not 6 inches away from it.
Oh, I've explored it. Spent a lot of time in churches when I was younger, debated it with many people both with and without faith (including a militant atheist whose views repulsed me, and a seventh day adventist who I sit next to at work who tries to convert someone in the office at least once a month) but I've come to the conclusion that religion, or any belief, can't truly come from outside of a person. Ok, it's not really about 'living a decent life' (which is just what comes naturally to people of faith) and you certainly can't 'work your way to heaven' by good works as a certain ahem, tricky cousin system to Christianity believes…..
….but if you understand what you obviously do understand, what's stopping you exploring it a bit more? You're not 6 inches away from it.
durbster said:
drainbrain said:
The secret is that only true faith produces the fulfilment of man's craving for satisfaction, because that craving all men feel can only be fulfilled by faith!
Sorry but that's nonsense. It satisfies a human need for explaining the irrational, that's all. That works for some people but not all.
If something awful happens to a loved one - as happens whether religious or not - you can use faith to convince yourself it's part of a plan. This helps people come to terms with things so that they can make sense of the utterly chaotic reality of nature. But let's be clear, there's absolutely no correlation between prayer and events, between the faithful and personal circumstances.
I think it also satisfies our instinctive need for parental figures in our life, as they also fulfil that same role of explaining things that seem incomprehensible.
But the only explanation that makes sense is that mother nature is in charge. Her actions are pure chaos, and she doesn't give a monkeys about whether we live a happy life or a horrific one.
I'm pleased you seem content with your choices but it seems extremely naive to think faith is giving you something you couldn't get via other means. Try travel, music, love, family and helping people. They can all bring great satisfaction too.
Which of the above ended your search for lasting satisfaction? Travel? Music? Family? Helping people? Love? Because once you got there one assumes there was no need to go anywhere further. The answer is of course none of them. Well maybe love. Which can't be the case or you'd share my understanding.
///ajd said:
I have to confess Lot's story is a bit of a strange one.
The blokes at his door appear to want to have man love with his guests - infact Lot offers up his virgin daughters (who he later has incest with) to the mob instead which seems a tad strange - his guests turn out to be angels who will subsequently destroy the city due it seems to all the man love going on.
Lot seems to be given the all clear as having done "nothing wrong" but his offering his daughters for a shag and then shagging them himself and having kids with them does seem a bit worse than what is purported to be the bigger sin - man love.
I am no expert on this as you can tell but the moral compass here seems a bit wonky, no?
Lot was far from steadfastly obedient to God. He just wasn't out and out rotten like the citizens of Sodom. He was also fortunate in being closely related to a friend of God's.The blokes at his door appear to want to have man love with his guests - infact Lot offers up his virgin daughters (who he later has incest with) to the mob instead which seems a tad strange - his guests turn out to be angels who will subsequently destroy the city due it seems to all the man love going on.
Lot seems to be given the all clear as having done "nothing wrong" but his offering his daughters for a shag and then shagging them himself and having kids with them does seem a bit worse than what is purported to be the bigger sin - man love.
I am no expert on this as you can tell but the moral compass here seems a bit wonky, no?
drainbrain said:
glazbagun said:
That is one reason wy I feel a little bad talking with Christians about their religion. On one hand I have a lot of opinions on why Christianity is, for lack of a better term, "wrong". But then smashing up someone's belief in what give their life meaning isn't a particularly nice thing to do either. It's like talking to Shallow Hal about his girlfriend.
You're another. Not far away at all. But don't think you can undo a believer's faith. You can't. You can't browbeat it out, bribe it out or even torture it out. Can't be done. Of course, the Parable of the Sower explains this and why shallow faith can wither. But really well rooted faith? Impossible!drainbrain said:
gadgetmac said:
Nobody who was alive during the time of Jesus wrote 1 single word about him. Strange no?
The Gospels are eyewitness accounts and are all about him. However, and more interestingly, what about the people who lived (and died) long before him who wrote about him? Like David the Psalmist for example? Or Isaiah?
As for the 'prophets' who spoke about him long before he lived, well, even those guys with boards around their necks saying the end of the world is nigh will be right one day. But seriously, again, you've heard of self-fulfilling prophesies I presume.
davepoth said:
Oh, I've explored it. Spent a lot of time in churches when I was younger, debated it with many people both with and without faith (including a militant atheist whose views repulsed me, and a seventh day adventist who I sit next to at work who tries to convert someone in the office at least once a month) but I've come to the conclusion that religion, or any belief, can't truly come from outside of a person.
There's a saying: "what's for you won't go by you". It'll shine when it shines. Speaking as one who has never (AFAIK) brought anyone to The Lord's Table I know I'm right when I say you're nearly there. We don't choose faith, it chooses us. It's within and without. Just don't ignore it when it knocks at your door.drainbrain said:
Lot was far from steadfastly obedient to God. He just wasn't out and out rotten like the citizens of Sodom. He was also fortunate in being closely related to a friend of God's.
Now I know accounts and interpretations vary, but it does seem that an awful lot of fuss is made of the man love going on - it is implied it is the key and most awful of the sins of those in sodom. There is a bit about being inhospitable, but even that is a bit vague and comes back to wanting to have man love with strangers.It seems they are almost given a last chance to have a hetero shag with lot's daughters, but no, they still want
man love and as such they all go up in a fireball.
Its clearly old fashioned stuff, not in keeping with modern morals and values.
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