Normandy church attack

[Digga]

Cobnapint said:

I wonder what tomorrow's act of medievil depravity will be.

Well it definitely won't be whistling on a Tuesday.

[PoleDriver]

Cobnapint said:

I wonder what tomorrow's act of medievil depravity will be.

Let's get today over first!

[PositronicRay]

Disastrous said:

dandarez said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I thought why?

Oh. Nice appreciative barstewards!

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/syrian-refuge...

Afraid you've got the wrong end of the stick there. I've got a few friends on Bute and this has been doing the rounds on social media.

The actual story is more like "Daily Mail hack (they ran the story initially I believe) turns up, twists the words of a non-native speaker with broken English and makes them out to be ungrateful when in reality, poor bloke is really grateful to the locals who have welcomed them but just wants an opportunity to get some work and move on with life".

Honestly, it's a hatchet job. But is lovely but there's fk all work there and it's daft idea to settle asylum-seekers there. These guys have actually fitted in really well and are well-liked about the place.

I believe you. But asylum seekers aren't allowed to work, are they?

[Challo]

TTwiggy said:

andymadmak said:

I really do feel that right now would be a good time for some good Muslim people to speak out.

Ok. But what do you really mean by this? Do you mean an official statement from some senior Imans? Or a march/statement by 'everyday' Muslims stating it's not in their name? If the latter, then how many Muslims would you want to see on the march or signing the petition in order to feel that a decent point had been made? Do you accept that to many Muslims this suimply isn't 'their problem' (from their POV) and that they might feel a bit picked on if they are expected to condemn the actions of a group of people who simply share a religion with them - especially when other groups (say, Catholics and child abuse) are not expected to do so.

I'm genuinly curious as you're right, people do ask for this sort of 'response' a lot, and the reason that people like me question it is I'm really not sure that 'Muslims' are going to be able to do enough to convince some people that they aren't all terrorist sympathisers.

To follow on from Twiggy, lots of Muslims have and continue to come out and condemn these type of attacks. Often its not reported by mainstream media, and also its the case that many Muslims do not see these people as following the same religion as them, not true Muslims and do not want anything to do with them.

[jjlynn27]

Finlandia said:

Ban religion, even if it could be done like in Soviet, would perhaps not be the best option, but to bring religion into modern time is a must. Not that long ago christian priests advocated the burning of witches, that is no longer the case, so it can be done.

Took a long time for that (witches). As an atheist, I don't care much for any religion, but would love to hear how would you bring religion into modern time, to use your words.
I don't have a solution for the current clusterfk, but I do think that public, and media by extension, are not helping with what seems to be insatiable appetite for the next story.

[andymadmak]

TTwiggy said:

Ok. But what do you really mean by this? Do you mean an official statement from some senior Imans? Or a march/statement by 'everyday' Muslims stating it's not in their name? If the latter, then how many Muslims would you want to see on the march or signing the petition in order to feel that a decent point had been made? Do you accept that to many Muslims this suimply isn't 'their problem' (from their POV) and that they might feel a bit picked on if they are expected to condemn the actions of a group of people who simply share a religion with them - especially when other groups (say, Catholics and child abuse) are not expected to do so.

I'm genuinly curious as you're right, people do ask for this sort of 'response' a lot, and the reason that people like me question it is I'm really not sure that 'Muslims' are going to be able to do enough to convince some people that they aren't all terrorist sympathisers.

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

[Budflicker]

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

And that i think is how a lot of people feel, well written for something that is difficult to express in words alone.

[TTwiggy]

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

I think that's a very fair answer. I know that I seem to pop up with regularity on these threads but I can assure you that I have no virtue flag to fly. My reasons for defending the Muslim faith are twofold. One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Which leads to my second point. We are undoubtebly at a cross roads right now. I do not defend or apologise for the actions of terrorists, but if we allow their actions to justify the lumping together of a whole group of people as 'the enemy' then history suggests we might head down a very dark road from which there is no return. The German people didn't suddenly condone the murder of 6 million Jews overnight.

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

[Turquoise]

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

Don't feel stupid for being honest. Good post.

[andymadmak]

TTwiggy said:

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

I agree 100%

[T5XARV]

Common sense posting as opposed to point scoring and name calling. I applaud that. We all need to stand together now.

[Zoon]

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

Well said, I agree.

[Brother D]

I'm beginning to think this might not actually be 'The religion of peace' as it turns out.

[Puggit]

Apparently the murder of the priest was filmed. Let's hope the murderers were killed before they uploaded it.

[rscott]

Senior Muslims have repeatedly condemned ISIS -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/isi...

http://time.com/4138212/isis-and-islam/

http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

[Zoon]

Brother D said:

I'm beginning to think this might not actually be 'The religion of peace' as it turns out.

There was quite a good comparison posted somewhere comparing Jesus to the other guy (not sure if I'm allowed to mention him by name), it was quite eye opening what had been written in respective holy books.

[TTwiggy]

Zoon said:

Brother D said:

I'm beginning to think this might not actually be 'The religion of peace' as it turns out.

There was quite a good comparison posted somewhere comparing Jesus to the other guy (not sure if I'm allowed to mention him by name), it was quite eye opening what had been written in respective holy books.

It was a cut-and-paste hatchet job that only belongs on hate sites and it was rightly removed from here. You could do the same to any religion/religious leader.

[Mothersruin]

jjlynn27 said:

Finlandia said:

Ban religion, even if it could be done like in Soviet, would perhaps not be the best option, but to bring religion into modern time is a must. Not that long ago christian priests advocated the burning of witches, that is no longer the case, so it can be done.

Took a long time for that (witches). As an atheist, I don't care much for any religion, but would love to hear how would you bring religion into modern time, to use your words.
I don't have a solution for the current clusterfk, but I do think that public, and media by extension, are not helping with what seems to be insatiable appetite for the next story.

It's impossible to bring religion into the modern world, they don't mix.

However, you could try a drag the cultures that perpetuate the religions into the modern world so that through education and enlightenment, religion would wither a die all by itself.

If you've spent any time in North Africa, the Middle East or the Indian Sub Continent, then you'll know there is a veneer of modernity but they are still very much third world countries with cultures that haven't changed since Mo saw the power the Christian Church had and decided to do the Medina Mash Up.

So, good luck with that.

[Cobnapint]

Puggit said:

Apparently the murder of the priest was filmed. Let's hope the murderers were killed before they uploaded it.

Good job the French police went in when they did - otherwise they undoubtedly would have executed the whole congregation.

[Puggit]

Cobnapint said:

Puggit said:

Apparently the murder of the priest was filmed. Let's hope the murderers were killed before they uploaded it.

Good job the French police went in when they did - otherwise they undoubtedly would have executed the whole congregation.

Almost definitely - the injured member of the congregation is apparently on death's door.