Normandy church attack

[Budflicker]

TTwiggy said:

I think that's a very fair answer. I know that I seem to pop up with regularity on these threads but I can assure you that I have no virtue flag to fly. My reasons for defending the Muslim faith are twofold. One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Which leads to my second point. We are undoubtebly at a cross roads right now. I do not defend or apologise for the actions of terrorists, but if we allow their actions to justify the lumping together of a whole group of people as 'the enemy' then history suggests we might head down a very dark road from which there is no return. The German people didn't suddenly condone the murder of 6 million Jews overnight.

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

Another well written and honest post, when people actually converse with sense as you two have just done with out the petty point scoring so prevalent on here ( and i'm as guilty as others) it's far more productive as a debate.

Some for you too TTwiggy

[Turquoise]

TTwiggy said:

One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Your friend was of a different generation. Many people of that generation had more morals, values and decency than the majority of adults today.

Your friend would have been despised by a modern radical Muslim as much as you or I, as white westerners unfortunately.

[audidoody]

I work quite closely with a fairly devout Asian Muslim raised in Tanzania before emigrating to the UK in the '70's.

He describes the ISIS lot as 'those stinking Arabs" and curses Merkel daily for the million let in.

They really aren't all the same.

Edited by marshalla on Tuesday 26th July 16:46

[fiatpower]

Yet again it seems that the perpetrators of this attack were known to security services. One of them was on a tag for terrorism!

When are the authorities going to do something about these known terrorist sympathisers! Deport them if they aren't from here and imprison those from the uk.

[Zoon]

TTwiggy said:

It was a cut-and-paste hatchet job that only belongs on hate sites and it was rightly removed from here. You could do the same to any religion/religious leader.

Really?
I don't ever recall any parts of the Bible where Jesus requested people to be killed or raped?
Yet the opposite seems true of Prophet Muhammad.

[Zoon]

fiatpower said:

Yet again it seems that the perpetrators of this attack were known to security services. One of them was on a tag for terrorism!

When are the authorities going to do something about these known terrorist sympathisers! Deport them if they aren't from here and imprison those from the uk.

What can they do? Put them in prison to collude with other terrorists or bring back the death penalty for any act of terrorism? It's a difficult situation, but something does need to be done.

[snorky782]

Zoon said:

TTwiggy said:

It was a cut-and-paste hatchet job that only belongs on hate sites and it was rightly removed from here. You could do the same to any religion/religious leader.

Really?
I don't ever recall any parts of the Bible where Jesus requested people to be killed or raped?
Yet the opposite seems true of Prophet Muhammad.

Maybe not Jesus but Gid seems quite happy with it. Here's a chunk of rape parts

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/rape...

I'll go back to reading this thread now and everyone can say "but this is the Old Testament, so it doesn't count" as usual

[CAPP0]

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

I strongly suspect, although it could never be validated, that your views are shared by a lot, perhaps the majority, of people, both here, in Europe and in many places around the world. Well said, well put.

[poo at Paul's]

What a pair of s.

[Zoon]

snorky782 said:

Maybe not Jesus but Gid seems quite happy with it. Here's a chunk of rape parts

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/rape...

I'll go back to reading this thread now and everyone can say "but this is the Old Testament, so it doesn't count" as usual

My original idea was best then, ban religion!

[snorky782]

Zoon said:

My original idea was best then, ban religion!

I'm taking that as tongue in cheek

[TTwiggy]

Turquoise said:

TTwiggy said:

One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Your friend was of a different generation. Many people of that generation had more morals, values and decency than the majority of adults today.

Your friend would have been despised by a modern radical Muslim as much as you or I, as white westerners unfortunately.

My friend would have been 38 now if he was still alive. He died three years ago and is/was a bit younger than me. I don't think he was of a different generation really. Where he was maybe different was in his career choices. Where his borthers and cousins were running takeaway businesses in thier teens, he went to university, studied design and worked for Ikea in Sweden (you can still buy a lamp he designed in store). His family were not very devout - but they were followers of the religion and he never drank alcohol – but they were very traditional Bangladeshi in their outlook. He married a Muslim girl he met on a Muslim dating site. Her family were much more modern, but oddly they were also much more religious.

I don't know why people like my friend chose to integrate while others go the other way. If I did I guess I'd be solving this issue myself! Education and opportunities have to play a big part though. I can imagine that if you're one of 10 kids in a 3-bed semi overlooking the North Circular, living with three or four generations of your family, many of whom don't speak English, then a one-way trip to Syria might seem like a good idea. If you feel that you have little or no prospects, and the local 'culture' of drinking, drug-taking and sex is abhorrent to you, then it must be hard to feel a part of anything.

These are just my random thoughts however. I wish I had the answers because I think we need some - and soon.

[stuttgartmetal]

I going back to mass on Sunday.
I haven't been for years, since my divorce actually.
But I am going back Sunday.

[fiatpower]

Zoon said:

What can they do? Put them in prison to collude with other terrorists or bring back the death penalty for any act of terrorism? It's a difficult situation, but something does need to be done.

I don't know really because you don't want to put them in mainstream prisons as they will just try and turn other prisoners. Perhaps internment camps for known terrorists, however you'd never be able to get rid of these as I can't imagine locking them up in a camp will make them like the west anymore ......

The death penalty should definitely be brought back for those who carry out acts of terror and are captured alive. However again the downside with this is that you just make them Martyrs for the cause.

So in short I have no idea!

[Zoon]

snorky782 said:

I'm taking that as tongue in cheek

Of course.

[Europa1]

Budflicker said:

TTwiggy said:

I think that's a very fair answer. I know that I seem to pop up with regularity on these threads but I can assure you that I have no virtue flag to fly. My reasons for defending the Muslim faith are twofold. One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Which leads to my second point. We are undoubtebly at a cross roads right now. I do not defend or apologise for the actions of terrorists, but if we allow their actions to justify the lumping together of a whole group of people as 'the enemy' then history suggests we might head down a very dark road from which there is no return. The German people didn't suddenly condone the murder of 6 million Jews overnight.

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

Another well written and honest post, when people actually converse with sense as you two have just done with out the petty point scoring so prevalent on here ( and i'm as guilty as others) it's far more productive as a debate.

Some for you too TTwiggy

Multiple from me, too. A very refreshing exchange, particularly for threads like this.

[stuttgartmetal]

How long till all the borders in Europe come down ?

[TTwiggy]

Europa1 said:

Budflicker said:

TTwiggy said:

I think that's a very fair answer. I know that I seem to pop up with regularity on these threads but I can assure you that I have no virtue flag to fly. My reasons for defending the Muslim faith are twofold. One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Which leads to my second point. We are undoubtebly at a cross roads right now. I do not defend or apologise for the actions of terrorists, but if we allow their actions to justify the lumping together of a whole group of people as 'the enemy' then history suggests we might head down a very dark road from which there is no return. The German people didn't suddenly condone the murder of 6 million Jews overnight.

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

Another well written and honest post, when people actually converse with sense as you two have just done with out the petty point scoring so prevalent on here ( and i'm as guilty as others) it's far more productive as a debate.

Some for you too TTwiggy

Multiple from me, too. A very refreshing exchange, particularly for threads like this.

Thank you all - I'm here all week; try the veal

Seriously though, I'm always happy to debate but it can be very hard to do so on here sometimes. And I'll also admit that if I see something posted that I find offensive, I can be a bit of a dick about it.

[Turquoise]

TTwiggy said:

Turquoise said:

TTwiggy said:

One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Your friend was of a different generation. Many people of that generation had more morals, values and decency than the majority of adults today.

Your friend would have been despised by a modern radical Muslim as much as you or I, as white westerners unfortunately.

My friend would have been 38 now if he was still alive. He died three years ago and is/was a bit younger than me. I don't think he was of a different generation really. Where he was maybe different was in his career choices. Where his borthers and cousins were running takeaway businesses in thier teens, he went to university, studied design and worked for Ikea in Sweden (you can still buy a lamp he designed in store). His family were not very devout - but they were followers of the religion and he never drank alcohol – but they were very traditional Bangladeshi in their outlook. He married a Muslim girl he met on a Muslim dating site. Her family were much more modern, but oddly they were also much more religious.

I don't know why people like my friend chose to integrate while others go the other way. If I did I guess I'd be solving this issue myself! Education and opportunities have to play a big part though. I can imagine that if you're one of 10 kids in a 3-bed semi overlooking the North Circular, living with three or four generations of your family, many of whom don't speak English, then a one-way trip to Syria might seem like a good idea. If you feel that you have little or no prospects, and the local 'culture' of drinking, drug-taking and sex is abhorrent to you, then it must be hard to feel a part of anything.

These are just my random thoughts however. I wish I had the answers because I think we need some - and soon.

Ah I see. I assumed he was an older person due to his passing. You didn't mention he died young.

It would seem he was well adjusted because his family integrated and found a balance between religion and modern life in the west. As we all know that seems to be the case less and less these days.

[br d]

That little exchange should be pasted into every thread on this subject when it inevitably deteriorates.

Top work the pair of you.