Normandy church attack

[snorky782]

Turquoise said:

Ah I see. I assumed he was an older person due to his passing. You didn't mention he died young.

It would seem he was well adjusted because his family integrated and found a balance between religion and modern life in the west. As we all know that seems to be the case less and less these days.

Why is it less and less the case? There are 100s of millions of Muslims worldwide and these are the odd Nutkin in comparison. Even if you go with the CIA 100,000 figure that still means 99.9994% of the Muslim population aren't supporters.

[TTwiggy]

Turquoise said:

Ah I see. I assumed he was an older person due to his passing. You didn't mention he died young.

It would seem he was well adjusted because his family integrated and found a balance between religion and modern life in the west. As we all know that seems to be the case less and less these days.

Sorry yes, I can see the confusion. He died suddenly of meningitis. Two of us 'westerners' went to the funeral and were the only ones in suits and black ties. We felt out of place but his dad was very touched and said it showed 'British respect' (but then this is a man who has a huge 1950s-era portrait of the queen on his living room wall!).

His family are/were vert traditional. His father ruled the house and they had elderly relatives living with them. But the family had done well out of 'Indian' restaurants and so the kids were able to complete further and higher education (those who wanted to). I think education might be the greatest weapon. Sadly, it's not always the easiest or fastest though.

[Turquoise]

snorky782 said:

Turquoise said:

Ah I see. I assumed he was an older person due to his passing. You didn't mention he died young.

It would seem he was well adjusted because his family integrated and found a balance between religion and modern life in the west. As we all know that seems to be the case less and less these days.

Why is it less and less the case? There are 100s of millions of Muslims worldwide and these are the odd Nutkin in comparison. Even if you go with the CIA 100,000 figure that still means 99.9994% of the Muslim population aren't supporters.

100's of millions worldwide have nothing to do with it. We are talking about the ones who wish to settle in the west. And lack willingness to integrate by some of them is one of the problems that has become apparent.

You didn't provide any answers to my questions earlier and you nearly got the thread closed with your arguing so I'm not debating with you anymore. Feel free to have the last word if you wish. I won't respond.

[Finlandia]

jjlynn27 said:

Finlandia said:

Ban religion, even if it could be done like in Soviet, would perhaps not be the best option, but to bring religion into modern time is a must. Not that long ago christian priests advocated the burning of witches, that is no longer the case, so it can be done.

Took a long time for that (witches). As an atheist, I don't care much for any religion, but would love to hear how would you bring religion into modern time, to use your words.
I don't have a solution for the current clusterfk, but I do think that public, and media by extension, are not helping with what seems to be insatiable appetite for the next story.

The changes must come from within, in the same way other religions have been brought in to modern times. How that is done, I have no idea, but it must be done.

[SplatSpeed]

islam needs a reformation like the christian church

to modernise the religion

also moderate Muslims need to do more to tackle and identify extremist Muslims

unlike the case with abu hamza

[Turquoise]

TTwiggy said:

Turquoise said:

Ah I see. I assumed he was an older person due to his passing. You didn't mention he died young.

It would seem he was well adjusted because his family integrated and found a balance between religion and modern life in the west. As we all know that seems to be the case less and less these days.

Sorry yes, I can see the confusion. He died suddenly of meningitis. Two of us 'westerners' went to the funeral and were the only ones in suits and black ties. We felt out of place but his dad was very touched and said it showed 'British respect' (but then this is a man who has a huge 1950s-era portrait of the queen on his living room wall!).

His family are/were vert traditional. His father ruled the house and they had elderly relatives living with them. But the family had done well out of 'Indian' restaurants and so the kids were able to complete further and higher education (those who wanted to). I think education might be the greatest weapon. Sadly, it's not always the easiest or fastest though.

It may well be.

But education is where unfortunately a generational problem really comes to light. A great many of today's generation be they Muslim or otherwise simply aren't interested. They want short cuts to wealth and a consumer lifestyle, and they want it now. When, for some Muslims at least, they don't attain that, they become disenfranchised and susceptible to being radicalised.

[WinstonWolf]

TTwiggy said:

Europa1 said:

Budflicker said:

TTwiggy said:

I think that's a very fair answer. I know that I seem to pop up with regularity on these threads but I can assure you that I have no virtue flag to fly. My reasons for defending the Muslim faith are twofold. One is personal - a very dear, and sadly departed, friend of mine was Muslim and I can say without any doubt that he was the nicest, kindest amd more tolerant person I have ever met. I know we always say good things about dead people, but he really was an exceptional person. I would hate to have this situation develop to a point where someone like him had to justify himself to some of the posters these threads attract, or was afraid to leave his house for fear of attack.

Which leads to my second point. We are undoubtebly at a cross roads right now. I do not defend or apologise for the actions of terrorists, but if we allow their actions to justify the lumping together of a whole group of people as 'the enemy' then history suggests we might head down a very dark road from which there is no return. The German people didn't suddenly condone the murder of 6 million Jews overnight.

That said, I do agree that something very troubling is happening in the Muslim community. Why young men who should really be chasing girls and doing wheelspins in the local supermarket carpark are suddenly deciding to head for Syria or blow up the local train station, I do not know. But it seems in all our interests to attempt to find out why, rather than just driving deeper wedges between our communities.

Another well written and honest post, when people actually converse with sense as you two have just done with out the petty point scoring so prevalent on here ( and i'm as guilty as others) it's far more productive as a debate.

Some for you too TTwiggy

Multiple from me, too. A very refreshing exchange, particularly for threads like this.

Thank you all - I'm here all week; try the veal

Seriously though, I'm always happy to debate but it can be very hard to do so on here sometimes. And I'll also admit that if I see something posted that I find offensive, I can be a bit of a dick about it.

Good post, it's a lot easier to debate with someone when you understand their reasoning

[TTwiggy]

WinstonWolf said:

Good post, it's a lot easier to debate with someone when you understand their reasoning

'TTwiggy - being a bit of a dick for 111 months'.

[s3fella]

'Several French media reported that one of the knifemen was a local man who had spent a year in jail on his return from Turkey after being intercepted trying to travel to Syria, but had been freed on bail with an electronic tag pending trial for alleged terrorism offences.'

If true more goody two shoes liberalism from the French authorities being sized upon and exploited by a barbaric living in the stone age tt.

Makes one wonder how many more of these sort they have their eye on are mulling around in the community thy people are oblivious to.

And hollande the lightweight left wing spanner comes out saying Isis has declared war and the French must do as much as possible 'within the law' to fight back.

Cos that's going well so far, ain't it Frank.

This is why they will never eradicate it.

Edited by s3fella on Tuesday 26th July 17:41

[TonyToniTone]

Turquoise said:

Your friend would have been despised by a modern radical Muslim as much as you or I, as white westerners unfortunately.

What an odd statement, is it just white westerners they despise?

[WinstonWolf]

TTwiggy said:

WinstonWolf said:

Good post, it's a lot easier to debate with someone when you understand their reasoning

'TTwiggy - being a bit of a dick for 111 months'.

Don't be going nice on me, I'd be nothing without a few adversaries

[rscott]

Finlandia said:

jjlynn27 said:

Finlandia said:

Ban religion, even if it could be done like in Soviet, would perhaps not be the best option, but to bring religion into modern time is a must. Not that long ago christian priests advocated the burning of witches, that is no longer the case, so it can be done.

Took a long time for that (witches). As an atheist, I don't care much for any religion, but would love to hear how would you bring religion into modern time, to use your words.
I don't have a solution for the current clusterfk, but I do think that public, and media by extension, are not helping with what seems to be insatiable appetite for the next story.

The changes must come from within, in the same way other religions have been brought in to modern times. How that is done, I have no idea, but it must be done.

I think this - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-sc... - is a good start. Attacks ISIS from an ideological standpoint, setting out how their actions are considered un-islamic by many senior figures in the faith.

However, it's possibly too highbrow for general consumption, perhaps a simplified version, detailing specific actions of IS and explaining in straightforward terms how they're against what most consider true Islam, would be of benefit?

[TTwiggy]

WinstonWolf said:

TTwiggy said:

WinstonWolf said:

Good post, it's a lot easier to debate with someone when you understand their reasoning

'TTwiggy - being a bit of a dick for 111 months'.

Don't be going nice on me, I'd be nothing without a few adversaries

You started it!

[WinstonWolf]

TTwiggy said:

WinstonWolf said:

TTwiggy said:

WinstonWolf said:

Good post, it's a lot easier to debate with someone when you understand their reasoning

'TTwiggy - being a bit of a dick for 111 months'.

Don't be going nice on me, I'd be nothing without a few adversaries

You started it!

And we're off

I don't post as much because it's so darn difficult to sensibly discuss this sort of thing, just ends up in a bunfight

When I first joined PH there were far fewer handbags and plenty of good debates. Perhaps this is the start of a new era of peace...

[Turquoise]

TonyToniTone said:

Turquoise said:

Your friend would have been despised by a modern radical Muslim as much as you or I, as white westerners unfortunately.

What an odd statement, is it just white westerners they despise?

No, your statement is odd.

It's really not difficult to grasp though. TTwiggy and I are white westerners. He and I are the people relevant to the conversation. What else should I call us?

Did I say they just depise white westerners? No I didn't. Stop looking for something that isn't there.

The thread has been free of pedantic argumentiveness for a few pages, be nice if it stayed that way.

[BigLion]

CAPP0 said:

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

I strongly suspect, although it could never be validated, that your views are shared by a lot, perhaps the majority, of people, both here, in Europe and in many places around the world. Well said, well put.

Agreed (+1)

As well as expulsion of 'known' individuals (subject to legal view as to reasonable beyond doubt) as I mentioned earlier, I think we should have an open narrative with Muslims in this country - if they want to go and join ISIS or fight in some ME war we should let them; it's their choice and life, let them travel for free - albeit on the proviso they hand in their passport on the way out.

The biggest factor to keep in mind is we talk about integration into the West but the reality is the ME Islamic people have far more in common than differences, yet sectarian violence amongst multiple ethnic groups of slightly different views of Islam keep occurring when a common enemy falls away.

Once ISIS as a concentrated force is defeated in the region, ethinc groups will turn on themselves once again. It's a shame and saddens me.

300 years or so ago Islam was trying to forcibly convert all of india - thankfully the relatively small population of brave, fearless and honourable Sikhs provided their Hindu brothers and sisters respite / protection at that time - how fked up are we as a race of people that 300 years later we're In so much conflict across the globe.

Edited by BigLion on Tuesday 26th July 17:58

[TTwiggy]

BigLion said:

Agreed (+1)

As well as expulsion of 'known' individuals (subject to legal view as to reasonable beyond doubt) as I mentioned earlier, I think we should have an open narrative with Muslims in this country - if they want to go and join ISIS or fight in some ME war we should let them; it's their choice and life, let them travel for free - albeit on the proviso they hand in their passport on the way out.

The biggest factor to keep in mind is we talk about integration into the West but the reality is the ME Islamic people have far more in common than differences, yet sectarian violence amongst multiple ethnic groups of slightly different views of Islam keep occurring when a common enemy falls away.

Once ISIS as a concentrated force is defeated in the region, ethinc groups will turn on themselves once again. It's a shame and saddens me.

I think a 'free ride to join ISIS' ticket could be a bit of a PR disaster if those you send off on a plane subsequently kill or injure British troops.

[Finlandia]

rscott said:

Finlandia said:

jjlynn27 said:

Finlandia said:

Ban religion, even if it could be done like in Soviet, would perhaps not be the best option, but to bring religion into modern time is a must. Not that long ago christian priests advocated the burning of witches, that is no longer the case, so it can be done.

Took a long time for that (witches). As an atheist, I don't care much for any religion, but would love to hear how would you bring religion into modern time, to use your words.
I don't have a solution for the current clusterfk, but I do think that public, and media by extension, are not helping with what seems to be insatiable appetite for the next story.

The changes must come from within, in the same way other religions have been brought in to modern times. How that is done, I have no idea, but it must be done.

I think this - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/muslim-sc... - is a good start. Attacks ISIS from an ideological standpoint, setting out how their actions are considered un-islamic by many senior figures in the faith.

However, it's possibly too highbrow for general consumption, perhaps a simplified version, detailing specific actions of IS and explaining in straightforward terms how they're against what most consider true Islam, would be of benefit?

That's a good start, needs simplifying and brought down to the local level imams and mosques, and repeated over and over again. Maybe also a "new testament" type of version of the quran, with a more modern and peaceful adaptation.

[Sam All]

BigLion said:

CAPP0 said:

andymadmak said:

You ask a very fair question. Trouble is I am struggling to answer it rationally because I am so very angry. I can't even tell you why this particular incident has affected me so profoundly. I only know that it has.

Several years ago I started a PH thread entitled "Muslims are not all terrorists" (or something very similar - it was a few years ago!) in which I exhorted my fellow PHers NOT to regard all Muslims as terrorists or to lump them all together in such a way. I still feel that way today, but I also have a growing feeling that I was/am stupidly naive in holding this view.

No, of course I don't now think that all Muslims are terrorists. I've worked with and enjoyed real friendships with Muslims most of my adult life.We are all just human when all is said and done. But, and it's a little but, these days there always seems to be some sort of excuse on offer...some sort of rational or apologist available working overtime to deflect blame or obfuscate things whenever something awful happens. Even here, it has to be said that many of the most ardent defenders of the (indefensible) are not Muslims at all, but rather those who want to wave their virtue flags with gusto.

I'm wrong to blame Muslims, I get it. I know it. But right now, I do. I am sorry, but I just do. Maybe I will feel calmer tomorrow, (I certainly hope so) but if I, a non religious middle aged, fat Yorkshireman can feel this angry over this latest incident then I just wonder if maybe a few more people out there might be getting near the load limit of their dromedary's spine with these people. These days practically every time I switch on the news there is something involving Muslims and it is never good. Random attacks by lone wolves, organised terror attacks, kiddie fiddling gangs, no go areas in cities, refusal to integrate, complaining about hijab this, nicqab that and burkah the other, making mealy mouthed excuses for the terrorists, the list goes on and on... or at least that's how it feels.

So what do I want? A statement? an apology? yeah, every little helps. Who from? I don't know... a bunch of senior Imams would be nice, but then again perhaps we shouldn't have to ask? When communities were under attack from rioters, the Sikhs got together to protect people of all races. When Mosques were being attacked there is evidence that other faith groups gathered outside to protect these places of worship. Do Muslims ever do these kinds of things for their communities? Or is it the case that the only time we ever really see any passion or commitment from the Muslim community to take to the streets in protest in any numbers is either when they are complaining about something or calling for the death of somebody? Am I being too cynical?

I know full well how stupid this must read, and trust me when I say that I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I honestly don't know how else to answer you TTwiggy

I strongly suspect, although it could never be validated, that your views are shared by a lot, perhaps the majority, of people, both here, in Europe and in many places around the world. Well said, well put.

Agreed (+1)

As well as expulsion of 'known' individuals (subject to legal view as to reasonable beyond doubt) as I mentioned earlier, I think we should have an open narrative with Muslims in this country - if they want to go and join ISIS or fight in some ME war we should let them; it's their choice and life, let them travel for free - albeit on the proviso they hand in their passport on the way out.

.

We do not hear of issues with other minority groups here in the UK or elsewhere (afaik). The Muslim community need to be more pro-active and demonstrate they are with us & our way of life. Win-win.

[bitchstewie]

What's the point of tagging someone who travelled to Syria to fight, got sent back, got put in jail for it, then got let out on a tag but is allowed out unsupervised between 8.30am and 12.30pm?

This one's a new low even by current standards, utterly abhorrent.