£375000 overtime pay for doctor, who syas NHS isnt broken
Discussion
sidicks said:
Jockman said:
I didn't realise that. Would they have some sort of Ownership in the business to motivate them to do this?
Pretty sure the Partners at Hill Dickinson overlook any trivial amounts of overtime so long as it's neither excessive nor regular. Sorts of fits in with what you are saying.
In 20+ years of working in financial services, explicit overtime payments were only available to the lower grades - primarily customer service staff. In professional areas, working beyond the standard 9-5 was expected, much more so as you got more senior.Pretty sure the Partners at Hill Dickinson overlook any trivial amounts of overtime so long as it's neither excessive nor regular. Sorts of fits in with what you are saying.
I'm guessing most professionals in financial services have signed to exclude themselves from the Working Time directive.
Where I work, 8am - 7pm would be 'standard' hours for professional staff.
Obviously this is recognised to some extent in basic salaries, in cash and share bonuses, but people are rewarded on output not on hours worked.
Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 27th July 10:17
Interesting point about looking at remuneration as an 'entire' package rather than a single item. Would be interesting to see how the NHS could measure effective output and pay accordingly rather than on an hourly system.
mph1977 said:
I think people are confusing the issue of 'overtime' for hours in addition to the contracted minima and payments made for additional planned work.
A lot of staff in the NHS of all grades will work some additional unpaid hours each week , sometimes for the promise of 'time owed' ( awful lot of people running a balance of that , that is unlikely to be repaid by the employer) other times for no recompense.
I suspect this figure given is for a consultant Surgeon who is undertaking a sixth full working day a week probably in the operating theatre ( in addition to on call commitments as part of the standard contract) queue busting waiting times ...
Agreed - this is unlikely to be a consultant starting a clock running when he hits the 5pm deadline!A lot of staff in the NHS of all grades will work some additional unpaid hours each week , sometimes for the promise of 'time owed' ( awful lot of people running a balance of that , that is unlikely to be repaid by the employer) other times for no recompense.
I suspect this figure given is for a consultant Surgeon who is undertaking a sixth full working day a week probably in the operating theatre ( in addition to on call commitments as part of the standard contract) queue busting waiting times ...
sidicks said:
Of, of course, it's not like the NHS budget is needed to be used elsewhere....
The money is spent on highly paid consultants who are that highly paid because they have skills that, presumably, very few others have.From the sounds of it, you'd rather have a skills-shortage in the NHS than pay overtime to certain employees?
sidicks said:
In 20+ years of working in financial services, explicit overtime payments were only available to the lower grades - primarily customer service staff. In professional areas, working beyond the standard 9-5 was expected, much more so as you got more senior.
I'm guessing most professionals in financial services have signed to exclude themselves from the Working Time directive.
Where I work, 8am - 7pm would be 'standard' hours for professional staff.
Obviously this is recognised to some extent in basic salaries, in cash and share bonuses, but people are rewarded on output not on hours worked.
yes, but, of course you do spend an awful lot of that time dicussing stuff on the net I'm guessing most professionals in financial services have signed to exclude themselves from the Working Time directive.
Where I work, 8am - 7pm would be 'standard' hours for professional staff.
Obviously this is recognised to some extent in basic salaries, in cash and share bonuses, but people are rewarded on output not on hours worked.
Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 27th July 10:17
MrBarry123 said:
The money is spent on highly paid consultants who are that highly paid because they have skills that, presumably, very few others have.
From the sounds of it, you'd rather have a skills-shortage in the NHS than pay overtime to certain employees?
You are wrong, I've said nothing of the sort.From the sounds of it, you'd rather have a skills-shortage in the NHS than pay overtime to certain employees?
I have stopped doing extra-contractual lists in the NHS since my local Trust reduced the payment rate to a point which I considered it financially untenable to participate. Some, although a significantly fewer than previously, of my colleagues continue to hunt out additional NHS work. Of course the work still needs doing, so the Trust can decide how it would like to sort that problem out.
Edited by ucb on Wednesday 27th July 10:37
sidicks said:
silent ninja said:
The majority population of Britain that voted Brexit. The country is quite anti immigration right now
In that case you are an idiot!How many doctors were arriving from Eastern Europe (for example)?
IIRC there are some issues with older estern bloc health professional qualifications due to the use of the Russian/Soviet Model of workforce planning , with Feldshers etc and the 'Nurses' being glorified HCAs / 2nd level equivalent and also something to do with the acceptability of Doctor qualifications
silent ninja said:
I see, another 'I want my cake and eat it too' living in cuckoo land
You can't have it both ways.
You see wrong. You appear to be another arrogant remain voter that doesn't understand the multitude of reasons different people voted for Brexit (or indeed, the difference between a controlled immigration policy and an uncontrolled one).You can't have it both ways.
HTH
mph1977 said:
There were some, although Spain and Portugal seems to be have been a ripe picking ground for Health Professionals .
IIRC there are some issues with older estern bloc health professional qualifications due to the use of the Russian/Soviet Model of workforce planning , with Feldshers etc and the 'Nurses' being glorified HCAs / 2nd level equivalent and also something to do with the acceptability of Doctor qualifications
Indeed - I'm sure there were some and, if they continue to be required, a credible controlled immigration policy would continue to allow them, along with those from outside Europe.IIRC there are some issues with older estern bloc health professional qualifications due to the use of the Russian/Soviet Model of workforce planning , with Feldshers etc and the 'Nurses' being glorified HCAs / 2nd level equivalent and also something to do with the acceptability of Doctor qualifications
Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 27th July 10:38
The colleges and Governemnt seem to be pining their hopes on a non-medically delivered model of care. Both the college of surgeons and anaesthetists are talking about non-medical technicians in recent documents.
There will not be additional doctors as they are too expensive to train and few european doctors want to emmigrate to britain permanently and hence the lack of consultants contiunes.
There will not be additional doctors as they are too expensive to train and few european doctors want to emmigrate to britain permanently and hence the lack of consultants contiunes.
sidicks said:
You see wrong. You appear to be another arrogant remain voter that doesn't understand the multitude of reasons different people voted for Brexit (or indeed, the difference between a controlled immigration policy and an uncontrolled one).
HTH
There are as many immigrants from outside Europe which by your definition would be controlled immigrants. The Brexit campaign targeted all immigrants, regardless of whether European or not and painted this as a very bad thing. Little Britain prevailed. The supporters showed plenty of hate for anything foreign, despite huge gaps in health& medicine, engineering, science...this is pretty clear today. Just the other day I was told to go home, despite being home and speaking better English than the 'gentleman' who was barely coherent and probably never stepped outside of his tiny neighbourhood. That's what I'd term lack of integration...HTH
ucb said:
The colleges and Governemnt seem to be pining their hopes on a non-medically delivered model of care. Both the college of surgeons and anaesthetists are talking about non-medical technicians in recent documents.
There will not be additional doctors as they are too expensive to train and few [/b]european doctors want to emmigrate to britain permanently and hence the lack of consultants contiunes.
What about the new places referred to by mph1977?There will not be additional doctors as they are too expensive to train and few [/b]european doctors want to emmigrate to britain permanently and hence the lack of consultants contiunes.
Why are you focussing on European doctors?
Jockman said:
Thanks. Seems like a structural issue.
Is it a case that PIs etc are not permitted to claim overtime?
The expectation to work extra hours is generally placed in most contracts, unpaid or not (I know we do).
From the Federation's Essex chapter: http://www.essex.polfed.org/?type=overtime (2nd para) Is it a case that PIs etc are not permitted to claim overtime?
The expectation to work extra hours is generally placed in most contracts, unpaid or not (I know we do).
jjlynn27 said:
V8 Fettler said:
There are pay bands for NHS consultants which refer to salaries, therefore unlikely to be contractors. Perhaps there are consultants employed as contractors by the NHS (?)
Police inspectors do not receive paid overtime, neither do grades above. There are plenty of salaried professional positions where there is no paid overtime but it is expected that hours will be worked above the core contractual requirement.
Locums are contractors, they operate on every level, from jd (all grades) to consultants. In my industry, salaried consultants are paid for overtime. Customer is charged for overtime. Without exception.Police inspectors do not receive paid overtime, neither do grades above. There are plenty of salaried professional positions where there is no paid overtime but it is expected that hours will be worked above the core contractual requirement.
V8 Fettler said:
Jockman said:
Thanks. Seems like a structural issue.
Is it a case that PIs etc are not permitted to claim overtime?
The expectation to work extra hours is generally placed in most contracts, unpaid or not (I know we do).
From the Federation's Essex chapter: http://www.essex.polfed.org/?type=overtime (2nd para) Is it a case that PIs etc are not permitted to claim overtime?
The expectation to work extra hours is generally placed in most contracts, unpaid or not (I know we do).
silent ninja said:
There are as many immigrants from outside Europe which by your definition would be controlled immigrants.
And? Who is expressing concern about doctors coming to work in this country, if there a shortfall, as clsimed?silent ninja said:
The Brexit campaign targeted all immigrants, regardless of whether European or not and painted this as a very bad thing. Little Britain prevailed. The supporters showed plenty of hate for anything foreign, despite huge gaps in health& medicine, engineering, science...this is pretty clear today.
It is pretty clear that you are wrong and are confusing a minority with the majority.silent ninja said:
Just the other day I was told to go home, despite being home and speaking better English than the 'gentleman' who was barely coherent and probably never stepped outside of his tiny neighbourhood. That's what I'd term lack of integration...
Being unable to differentiate between the majority and a few isolated idiots is what I'd term 'idiotic'.V8 Fettler said:
jjlynn27 said:
V8 Fettler said:
There are pay bands for NHS consultants which refer to salaries, therefore unlikely to be contractors. Perhaps there are consultants employed as contractors by the NHS (?)
Police inspectors do not receive paid overtime, neither do grades above. There are plenty of salaried professional positions where there is no paid overtime but it is expected that hours will be worked above the core contractual requirement.
Locums are contractors, they operate on every level, from jd (all grades) to consultants. In my industry, salaried consultants are paid for overtime. Customer is charged for overtime. Without exception.Police inspectors do not receive paid overtime, neither do grades above. There are plenty of salaried professional positions where there is no paid overtime but it is expected that hours will be worked above the core contractual requirement.
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