Byron Burgers immigration raid.
Discussion
BlackLabel said:
How do these people get NI numbers if their documents were fake? Sure your local kebab place or car wash won't bother with things like NI but a chain like Byron would need to be making NI payments for the illegal workers.
This is of no help because I can't remember but radio 4 covered this. I've linked it before. Apparently it's very easy to get genuine ni numbers. Iirc one way is people rent out genuine ones . It's doesn't matter anyway the illegals get a white bit of paper then go straight back to work. ( probably not in this case)iphonedyou said:
Familiar with the man on the Clapham omnibus concept but the test feels about right here - the man on that omnibus is most unlikely to be able spot, having followed the three step process referred to earlier, a counterfeit any better than 'reasonably apparent' as fake.
The man on that bus would satisfy himself to the best of his knowledge, not being a forensic specialist, that the documentation is genuine. He'd follow the guidance of the government. The government gives him an exception if he does this.
And that looks to be about what's happened here.
This sounds like what's gone on. I suspect their checks were a bit iffy, but not illegal, so adhering to the letter if possibly not the spirit of the law. I suspect as I said earlier that the sting operation was their part in a deal with Immigration, as in "You do us a favour and we'l overlook the fact that you've been a bit slack here. If you don't help us out we'll be all over you like a rash, you'll be up to your arses in lawyers before you can say "knife" and by the time we've finished our investigations you'll be pleased if we DO prosecute you for employing illegals because you'll spend so much time with us you'll wish you weren't born. So what's it going to be?"The man on that bus would satisfy himself to the best of his knowledge, not being a forensic specialist, that the documentation is genuine. He'd follow the guidance of the government. The government gives him an exception if he does this.
And that looks to be about what's happened here.
Edited by iphonedyou on Thursday 28th July 16:50
janesmith1950 said:
Telling staff it's a training day and then having a sting operation is a massive Whopper.
I asked my missus her opinion on this, and before I'd even started, she had heard people talking about it at work, and her words were "although it's the right thing to do by the law, it's shady as s
t! I don't think I'd want to work there, and I wouldn't have anything to hide!" She's hiding loads, the lying b
hFredClogs said:
Usually "in the law" the term reasonable is used to imply what a normal bod in the street would do or think or perceive as proper in a given circumstance.
Isn't the fact that they employed so many illegals sort of evidence that their checks weren't reasonable? They certainly weren't reasonably effective.
My 4yr old has a better grasp of logic than you do Fred at times Isn't the fact that they employed so many illegals sort of evidence that their checks weren't reasonable? They certainly weren't reasonably effective.
Have you had experience of checking people's documents?
The reasonableness around the checks is directly related to the quality of the fake documents, not the number of them presented.
Yes, it looks odd that Byron have so many. But that could be being influenced by a lot of factors. Do you know how many people McDonalds reject for having fake papers? Do we know that McDonalds don't also have a large proportion of illegals and won't be running their own H&S training at some point soon?
I'm with the poster who noted that it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to come up with a system that makes checking these things more robust. All of these documents have unique reference numbers on them. Providing back the name/address of the real owner, and perhaps even a photo, would strike me as being pretty straightforward. With something along those lines you'd be much more legitimately able to froth off at the evil employer not doing their duty....but then you'd probably be moaning about civil liberties and no letting "the man" know about you
There's a few sides to this story and I can understand why Byron have done what they have done.
1) Last time I checked, it was a £5k fine per illegal work caught in your midst (it might be even more now). While maybe Byron can afford this, for the 35 that were taken away that's still £105k.
2) Raids are usually made without warning (for obvious reasons!) and so could potentially cause serious disruption to business if for example there was a raid during business operating hours and they took away more than a few members of staff - never mind the disruption to the paying customers.
People will claim all sorts of documentation that entitle you to work in the UK. For instance, people often wrongly assume that just having a national insurance number gives you the right to work in the UK - it doesn't! It's quite a minefield but I'd expect a company the size of Byron to conduct the proper checks. However, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that forged documents have been presented which can make things even harder.
I also don't understand the negativity - illegals taking the jobs of people who're entitled to work surely is what everyone wants to prevent? It would discourage any would be illegal immigrants if they knew that no one would employ them if they entered the UK illegally. In a perfect world (I know this doesn't exist but..) this would only have benefits in terms of protecting workers in general (e.g. stopping illegals working for a pittance and driving down wages, etc.)
1) Last time I checked, it was a £5k fine per illegal work caught in your midst (it might be even more now). While maybe Byron can afford this, for the 35 that were taken away that's still £105k.
2) Raids are usually made without warning (for obvious reasons!) and so could potentially cause serious disruption to business if for example there was a raid during business operating hours and they took away more than a few members of staff - never mind the disruption to the paying customers.
People will claim all sorts of documentation that entitle you to work in the UK. For instance, people often wrongly assume that just having a national insurance number gives you the right to work in the UK - it doesn't! It's quite a minefield but I'd expect a company the size of Byron to conduct the proper checks. However, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that forged documents have been presented which can make things even harder.
I also don't understand the negativity - illegals taking the jobs of people who're entitled to work surely is what everyone wants to prevent? It would discourage any would be illegal immigrants if they knew that no one would employ them if they entered the UK illegally. In a perfect world (I know this doesn't exist but..) this would only have benefits in terms of protecting workers in general (e.g. stopping illegals working for a pittance and driving down wages, etc.)
Murph7355 said:
FredClogs said:
Usually "in the law" the term reasonable is used to imply what a normal bod in the street would do or think or perceive as proper in a given circumstance.
Isn't the fact that they employed so many illegals sort of evidence that their checks weren't reasonable? They certainly weren't reasonably effective.
My 4yr old has a better grasp of logic than you do Fred at times Isn't the fact that they employed so many illegals sort of evidence that their checks weren't reasonable? They certainly weren't reasonably effective.
Have you had experience of checking people's documents?
The reasonableness around the checks is directly related to the quality of the fake documents, not the number of them presented.
If a fella called Ryan Jones (for the want of a more Anglo saxon sounding name) with pale freckled skin, a working class east end accent, tattoos, a vague whiff of oven chips and poor educational achievements came for interview I think a cursory glance at his passport, recording of his NI number and the take up of a reference might indeed by reasonable.
As I said before though, when presented with a candidate who looks and acts like they may not have long since climbed out of a curtain sider or run the tunnel of chance at calais I think its reasonable not only to give their paperwork more than a cursory glance but perhaps it might be reasonable to employ an outside agency to aid or educate oneself in the verification of the documentation. I mean would you not say that was a reasonable course of action considering the fines that can be levied for not acting reasonably?
One presumes these guys aren't Bond or Bourn-esque characters with access to the secret underground of master forgers, they presumably are going to the fairly cheap "documents are us" chap who hangs around the ferry ports and train stations. I suspect a consultation with the Border Agency and a days training on how to stop a forgery would be a good business investment, no?
You seem to be confusing what's reasonable and what's convenient for this employer. Given the info in the link Iphonedyou posted you'll see that with a £10,000 max possible fine for any employer found not to be acting reasonably (per illegal employed) Byron Burger stood to loose a great deal by standing up to reasonable expectations, once busted, so instead they've turned their staff in and taken a deal. Despicable actions if you ask me.
FredClogs said:
I don't think so, I'd say reasonableness is an entirely flexible concept, and so does the law.
If a fella called Ryan Jones (for the want of a more Anglo saxon sounding name) with pale freckled skin, a working class east end accent, tattoos, a vague whiff of oven chips and poor educational achievements came for interview I think a cursory glance at his passport, recording of his NI number and the take up of a reference might indeed by reasonable.
As I said before though, when presented with a candidate who looks and acts like they may not have long since climbed out of a curtain sider or run the tunnel of chance at calais I think its reasonable not only to give their paperwork more than a cursory glance but perhaps it might be reasonable to employ an outside agency to aid or educate oneself in the verification of the documentation. I mean would you not say that was a reasonable course of action considering the fines that can be levied for not acting reasonably?
One presumes these guys aren't Bond or Bourn-esque characters with access to the secret underground of master forgers, they presumably are going to the fairly cheap "documents are us" chap who hangs around the ferry ports and train stations. I suspect a consultation with the Border Agency and a days training on how to stop a forgery would be a good business investment, no?
You seem to be confusing what's reasonable and what's convenient for this employer. Given the info in the link Iphonedyou posted you'll see that with a £10,000 max possible fine for any employer found not to be acting reasonably (per illegal employed) Byron Burger stood to loose a great deal by standing up to reasonable expectations, once busted, so instead they've turned their staff in and taken a deal. Despicable actions if you ask me.
How do you know they've done a deal? The links I read noted that the authorities have said Byron had done what could be reasonably expected ref checking documents. Do you know something they don't? Or is it just your cynicism in overdrive again?If a fella called Ryan Jones (for the want of a more Anglo saxon sounding name) with pale freckled skin, a working class east end accent, tattoos, a vague whiff of oven chips and poor educational achievements came for interview I think a cursory glance at his passport, recording of his NI number and the take up of a reference might indeed by reasonable.
As I said before though, when presented with a candidate who looks and acts like they may not have long since climbed out of a curtain sider or run the tunnel of chance at calais I think its reasonable not only to give their paperwork more than a cursory glance but perhaps it might be reasonable to employ an outside agency to aid or educate oneself in the verification of the documentation. I mean would you not say that was a reasonable course of action considering the fines that can be levied for not acting reasonably?
One presumes these guys aren't Bond or Bourn-esque characters with access to the secret underground of master forgers, they presumably are going to the fairly cheap "documents are us" chap who hangs around the ferry ports and train stations. I suspect a consultation with the Border Agency and a days training on how to stop a forgery would be a good business investment, no?
You seem to be confusing what's reasonable and what's convenient for this employer. Given the info in the link Iphonedyou posted you'll see that with a £10,000 max possible fine for any employer found not to be acting reasonably (per illegal employed) Byron Burger stood to loose a great deal by standing up to reasonable expectations, once busted, so instead they've turned their staff in and taken a deal. Despicable actions if you ask me.
Use of external parties to check id's is very reasonable in some circumstances. But with a transient work force likely on minimum wage perhaps Byron determined the risk/reward balance (risks including fines) wasn't worth the cost. Again, have you experience of checking documents or using third parties to check credentials? Do you employ anyone?
As for your tableau on "how to spot a wrong un", it did make me smile. Do you still think we're in the 1950s and it's a piece of piss to spot someone who "doesn't belong here" just by their complexion? You can just imagine the headlines next - "Byron picking on swarthy types by getting Control Risks to check them and not whiteys"
I was thinking how hard would it be to buy the paperwork online, so just had a look, all very easy.
The trickiest one seems to be a genuine EU Residence Permit, but quick look on the dark web sees they sell for around £200.
Sorry, but I don't think as an employer you would be able to tell. Not saying you wouldn't suspect, but tell from documents, nah.
The trickiest one seems to be a genuine EU Residence Permit, but quick look on the dark web sees they sell for around £200.
Sorry, but I don't think as an employer you would be able to tell. Not saying you wouldn't suspect, but tell from documents, nah.
FredClogs said:
Seems to me Byron Burger are in the wrong. Makes me feel very uncomfortable that large corporate businesses can claim ignorance or wash their hands in this manner.
Either they're using this as a way of laying off some staff and avoid redundancy or settlement
Or
They've been found out not checking their employees particulars well enough and either the Border Security have threatened them into shopping the staff or someone else has but either way they've chosen to drop the staff in the st to avoid taking any responsibility.
I'd like to see employers who employ illegal staff fined and pilloried and force them to pay compo to the immigrant and sponsor their citizenship or naturalisation procedure.
They come over here... Working, paying taxes... etc... etc...
What a crock..Either they're using this as a way of laying off some staff and avoid redundancy or settlement
Or
They've been found out not checking their employees particulars well enough and either the Border Security have threatened them into shopping the staff or someone else has but either way they've chosen to drop the staff in the s
t to avoid taking any responsibility.I'd like to see employers who employ illegal staff fined and pilloried and force them to pay compo to the immigrant and sponsor their citizenship or naturalisation procedure.
They come over here... Working, paying taxes... etc... etc...
Illegal immigrants, here illegally, using forged documents to work illegally and you blame the business for getting rid of them and them being shunted out of the country?
Do you do/feel the same for other thieves and fraudsters when they get caught?
mondeoman said:
What a crock..
Illegal immigrants, here illegally, using forged documents to work illegally and you blame the business for getting rid of them and them being shunted out of the country?
Do you do/feel the same for other thieves and fraudsters when they get caught?
I don't particularly no, but to be to fair other theives and fraudsters don't do what they do for 60hrs a week in a fast food outlet kitchen for minimum wage, pay all their taxes etc... etc...Illegal immigrants, here illegally, using forged documents to work illegally and you blame the business for getting rid of them and them being shunted out of the country?
Do you do/feel the same for other thieves and fraudsters when they get caught?
It's not as if these people aren't "earning" and contributing, let's face the reality here, some people who were cooking burgers in s
t conditions (I worked fast food for 4 years to pay my way through college - it's not a coal mine but it's not great either) to support a pretty meager subsistence life style, the chain is owned by a venture capitilist group who bought it for £100million - I mean I'm not arguing there is anything wrong with that situation, I'm just saddened by the modern zeitgeist of people and groups with money and power scapegoating the poor and working classes whom they exploit. Go there for your tea if you endorse their behaviour so much... Of these two leapords which do you thing will change it's spots first?
Mr_B said:
You might have thought it a complete non story, but company complies with officials over illegal workers and gets slated for doing by the thick end of Twitter and Facebook. Why would you actively condemn them and then try and boycott their business ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36910950
The company were stupid IMOhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36910950
Their target market is Hipster Shoreditch scum so of course they will alienate their core demographic of trendy leftie t
tsI've got a lot of sympathy for the company and people doing document checks. I've got the passports on my desk at the moment, all different. Designs, photo location, number of photos, you name it. The only similarity is the colour and logo on the front. They're all British. Throw foreign ones into the mix and how you're meant to know which is legit is beyond me.
TeamD said:
stripy7 said:
Although isn't the point about the sheer number involved here? Surely companines don't want the bad PR and aggravation and would just not employ in the first place?
If they have what looks like the correct documentation then how would you know? The story seems to be that the employees were supplying forged documentation which I suspect would be of great interest to the immigration folks and thus warrant a more in-depth investigation. 13m said:
stripy7 said:
13m said:
stripy7 said:
13m said:
It has been made clear that the employer performed the correct checks but the documents were fake.
So, had you read the story, you'd not have commented, probably.
Actually, you're wrong. Now fSo, had you read the story, you'd not have commented, probably.
k off.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36910950
"The Home Office said Byron had done the correct "right to work" checks on recruits, but it was suspected the employees had provided false documents."
FredClogs said:
I don't particularly no, but to be to fair other theives and fraudsters don't do what they do for 60hrs a week in a fast food outlet kitchen for minimum wage, pay all their taxes etc... etc...
It's not as if these people aren't "earning" and contributing, let's face the reality here, some people who were cooking burgers in st conditions (I worked fast food for 4 years to pay my way through college - it's not a coal mine but it's not great either) to support a pretty meager subsistence life style, the chain is owned by a venture capitilist group who bought it for £100million - I mean I'm not arguing there is anything wrong with that situation, I'm just saddened by the modern zeitgeist of people and groups with money and power scapegoating the poor and working classes whom they exploit.
Go there for your tea if you endorse their behaviour so much... Of these two leapords which do you thing will change it's spots first?
So your beef is with these companies in general then, rather than the fact they were employing immigrants? It's not as if these people aren't "earning" and contributing, let's face the reality here, some people who were cooking burgers in s
t conditions (I worked fast food for 4 years to pay my way through college - it's not a coal mine but it's not great either) to support a pretty meager subsistence life style, the chain is owned by a venture capitilist group who bought it for £100million - I mean I'm not arguing there is anything wrong with that situation, I'm just saddened by the modern zeitgeist of people and groups with money and power scapegoating the poor and working classes whom they exploit. Go there for your tea if you endorse their behaviour so much... Of these two leapords which do you thing will change it's spots first?
You just think they are taking advantage of people with the wages and working conditions?
So why did you work in one for years? Why did I work in McDs while at college? Why did most of my mates work in them?
To earn a few quid that is why, surely?
You just sound like a complete leftie to be honest.
Can I ask what you do for a living? Genuinely interested.
gizlaroc said:
So your beef is with these companies in general then, rather than the fact they were employing immigrants?
You just think they are taking advantage of people with the wages and working conditions?
So why did you work in one for years? Why did I work in McDs while at college? Why did most of my mates work in them?
To earn a few quid that is why, surely?
You just sound like a complete leftie to be honest.
Can I ask what you do for a living? Genuinely interested.
A complete leftie! You just think they are taking advantage of people with the wages and working conditions?
So why did you work in one for years? Why did I work in McDs while at college? Why did most of my mates work in them?
To earn a few quid that is why, surely?
You just sound like a complete leftie to be honest.
Can I ask what you do for a living? Genuinely interested.
is that supposed to be an insult. It's funny how the vernacular changes, is being a "complete lefty" somehow supposed to be on a par with being a racist a criminal or exploiting your workforce?I did 3 years at Mcds, enjoyed every minute of it (mostly) and no I don't have any beef with people employing people to do jobs, or venture capital run business or even poor people working long hours in poor conditions for s
t money, no beef at all.What I dislike is this instance is the actions of the company which has apparently dissolved then of any responsibly and led to the criminalisation of people who were a apparently doing nothing more than working hard, paying their taxes and contributing to their communities and the wider success of the economy.
What I do for a living is irrelevant, if you can't discuss the topic without resorting to personal attacks then just don't engage me, I'm happy not to be engaged, I view posting on PH very much as a cathartic release. My financial or social standing should not effect your judgment of my opinions, if it does then you're not really thinking well enough.
Edited by FredClogs on Friday 29th July 10:24
FredClogs said:
What I dislike is this instance is the actions of the company which has apparently dissolved then of any responsibly and led to the criminalisation of people who were a apparently doing nothing more than working hard, paying their taxes and contributing to their communities and the wider success of the economy.
Which community? The one that disregards pretty important laws from the get-go?Edited by FredClogs on Friday 29th July 10:24
Stop virtue signalling Fred, oh these poor hard working people who before they even became "perfect citizens" committed quite a serious fraud.
FredClogs said:
A complete leftie! is that supposed to be an insult. It's funny how the vernacular changes, is being a "complete lefty" somehow supposed to be on a par with being a racist a criminal or exploiting your workforce?
Your post simply made you sound like you thought Byrons were taking advantage of people with minimum wages and poor working conditions, and as a company that was recently purchased for £100m they shouldn't be allowed, or should do better than that? is that supposed to be an insult. It's funny how the vernacular changes, is being a "complete lefty" somehow supposed to be on a par with being a racist a criminal or exploiting your workforce?Which all sounded very left wing.
FredClogs said:
What I dislike is this instance is the actions of the company which has apparently dissolved then of any responsibly and led to the criminalisation of people who were a apparently doing nothing more than working hard, paying their taxes and contributing to their communities and the wider success of the economy.
Let's see if a statement is released before judging too much shall we? Without knowing the full facts all we can do is make very presumptuous assumptions.
FredClogs said:
What I do for a living is irrelevant, if you can't discuss the topic without resorting to personal attacks then just don't engage me, I'm happy not to be engaged, I view posting on PH very much as a cathartic release. My financial or social standing should not effect your judgment of my opinions, if it does then you're not really thinking well enough.
There was no personal attacks. I find it very strange you saw anything I said as an attack?Also it is far from irrelevant, and I don't care less about your financial standing, that was not why I was asking.
I guess with your original post seeming so 'left wing' I wondered whether you run a business yourself or simply collect a pay packet at the end of each month.
It was not an attack though, as I said, I was genuinely interested to see how such different views from people are formed.
I was very left of thinking until I started my own business, then when I realised just how hard it was (staff the biggest problem) I started to change my views pretty quickly.
I didn't mean to upset you, was just intrigued.
MrBrightSi said:
Which community? The one that disregards pretty important laws from the get-go?
Stop virtue signalling Fred, oh these poor hard working people who before they even became "perfect citizens" committed quite a serious fraud.
Ha ha, yes, when "complete lefty" fails to wound the supposed opponent scurrilous accusations of "virtue signalling" will definitely close down the uncomfortable and confusing debate at hand.Stop virtue signalling Fred, oh these poor hard working people who before they even became "perfect citizens" committed quite a serious fraud.
Why not stop trotting out internet debate cliches and actually start thinking about the world you want to live in?
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