Insurance quotes

Author
Discussion

Thorodin

2,459 posts

132 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
1. Where did he pass the driving test, and has he always held a 'clean' licence?
2. Some companies just don't like certain cars or occupations (according to their corporate experience).
3. Some companies 'specialise' in certain risks because of their particular set-up and offer non-standard
premium rates.

If there is a difference in premium rates, that reflects that particular company's experience of a particular combination of risks taken together with their repair/recovery back-up situation, and there will be no definitive answer. Although there will always be a section of the market that is, let's say 'sharp', they are all in competition with each other and tend to respond to market conditions. If they are profitable and booming they will see no pressing need to be the cheapest and will seek to refine their risk exposure to a more affluent customer profile.

recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
Thorodin said:
1. Where did he pass the driving test, and has he always held a 'clean' licence?
2. Some companies just don't like certain cars or occupations (according to their corporate experience).
3. Some companies 'specialise' in certain risks because of their particular set-up and offer non-standard
premium rates.

If there is a difference in premium rates, that reflects that particular company's experience of a particular combination of risks taken together with their repair/recovery back-up situation, and there will be no definitive answer. Although there will always be a section of the market that is, let's say 'sharp', they are all in competition with each other and tend to respond to market conditions. If they are profitable and booming they will see no pressing need to be the cheapest and will seek to refine their risk exposure to a more affluent customer profile.
Every detail between the two quotes is the same, apart from the question, born in the UK or not. Always had a clean licence.

So where he passed the test is irrelevant, as there is no question on that topic. (He passed in the UK ) He was only born in NL because his parents worked there at the time and they were back in the UK within 1 year.
Certain cars and occupations do not count here either. it is the same person, car and occupation on both quotes.
it is also the same company quoting different quotes here.
The question is why is the same company quoting far more expensively for a more experienced driver with more NCB but was born outside the UK, than another driver with considerably less experience and less NCB,(so more risk (same name. same profession, same car, same address, same everything. except born in the UK with less NCB and less years driving).

Looks to me like there is a profile here for some companies for people born outside the UK.

Edited by recycled on Saturday 30th July 16:11

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
Every detail between the two quotes is the same, apart from the question, born in the UK or not. Always had a clean licence.

So where he passed the test is irrelevant, as there is no question on that topic. (He passed in the UK ) He was only born in NL because his parents worked there at the time and they were back in the UK within 1 year.
Certain cars and occupations do not count here either. it is the same person, car and occupation on both quotes.
it is also the same company quoting different quotes here.
The question is why is the same company quoting far more expensively for a more experienced driver with more NCB but was born outside the UK, than another driver with considerably less experience and less NCB,(so more risk (same name. same profession, same car, same address, same everything. except born in the UK with less NCB and less years driving).

Looks to me like there is a profile here for some companies for people born outside the UK.
As explained above, clearly there is statistical evidence that such people have more accidents!

snorky782

1,115 posts

98 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
Every detail between the two quotes is the same, apart from the question, born in the UK or not. Always had a clean licence.

So where he passed the test is irrelevant, as there is no question on that topic. (He passed in the UK ) He was only born in NL because his parents worked there at the time and they were back in the UK within 1 year.
Certain cars and occupations do not count here either. it is the same person, car and occupation on both quotes.
it is also the same company quoting different quotes here.
The question is why is the same company quoting far more expensively for a more experienced driver with more NCB but was born outside the UK, than another driver with considerably less experience and less NCB,(so more risk (same name. same profession, same car, same address, same everything. except born in the UK with less NCB and less years driving).

Looks to me like there is a profile here for some companies for people born outside the UK.

Edited by recycled on Saturday 30th July 16:11
What does the last sentence mean? There's a profile for everything.

You've also said you changed length licence held and NCD as well as where born

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
Looks to me like there is a profile here for some companies for people born outside the UK.
That is correct, there is.

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
When insurers have been challenged on this in the past......

ELEPHANT said:
Elephant explains that it bases its calculations on statistics of past claims from customers. "Our experience shows that policyholders who have not always been a UK resident have a considerably worse claims experience, hence a higher premium for such customers," says a spokeswoman. "We do therefore use UK residency as a pricing factor. We don't ask any questions about nationality or race, rather whether or not someone has lived in the UK for the whole of their life, and if not for how long.

recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
snorky782 said:
What does the last sentence mean? There's a profile for everything.

You've also said you changed length licence held and NCD as well as where born
It clearly means what i typed in it. There is a profile for people not born in the UK (not for everything as you wrote).
Without checking the circumstances of their birth.

I cannot see any difference between someone born in the UK and someone born out of the UK who came back to the UK within a year.
unfortunately in a form as soon as you fill born outside the UK, it conjures all sorts of images, negative or otherwise as this quote clearly shows.

Edited by recycled on Saturday 30th July 18:12

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
Not sure why you are race or nationality should be a factor, as i have never mentioned that.
The Elephant quote states quite clearly its not race or nationality based

They have evidence that people born outside the UK are a higher risk and therefore charge more

It's a computer at the end of the day. Whether you have lived in the country since you were 1 or since you were 30 is probably of no consequence to the algorithm the computer has been given. The key thing is that the decision is based on evidence.

recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
craigjm said:
When insurers have been challenged on this in the past......

ELEPHANT said:
Elephant explains that it bases its calculations on statistics of past claims from customers. "Our experience shows that policyholders who have not always been a UK resident have a considerably worse claims experience, hence a higher premium for such customers," says a spokeswoman. "We do therefore use UK residency as a pricing factor. We don't ask any questions about nationality or race, rather whether or not someone has lived in the UK for the whole of their life, and if not for how long.
Correct .That should be the case, but not when the form clearly states in the next question

How long have you been resident in the UK and the answer is a date that clearly shows it was less than one year after birth.

Meanwhile Quote A who was born in the UK and has only been longer in life that Quote B for about 9 months gets a £200 discount even though they have been driving for 5 years and have 5 years NCB.

Confusing or what?


recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
craigjm said:
The Elephant quote states quite clearly its not race or nationality based

They have evidence that people born outside the UK are a higher risk and therefore charge more

It's a computer at the end of the day. Whether you have lived in the country since you were 1 or since you were 30 is probably of no consequence to the algorithm the computer has been given. The key thing is that the decision is based on evidence.
Exactly my point. Whatever computer algorithm they use is totally wrong. I know who is more of a risk and who is more likely to cause a crash.
probably why the insurance premiums are totally miscalculated anyway, if you can deem a holder with way more NCB and way more experience driving is more of a risk because he happens to be born abroad.

Do most people agree that this is fair? and if you are running your own risk analysis in your insurance company , which candidate is of a greater risk to you?

Edited by recycled on Saturday 30th July 18:06

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
Your NCB over and above 5 years doesn't generally make any difference anyway and you still go down to three years once you have had an incident and it is probably a similar thing with years driving experience once you exceed 5 years.

I suggest that he looks at the immigration rules that were in place when he was born because if both his parents are British and he was naturalised immediately it may allow him to actually answer no to that question. However, it would be worth raising it as an issue to the insurance ombudsman to see if the view has changed since that Elephant quote in 2010 and some of the newspapers would love a good story like that too.

Bottom line is, if it feels discriminatory then challenge it as that's the only way things will change.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
This is more about the limitations of a web based quote engine rather than underwriting.

They have to strike a balance between making the system user friendly and quick to use and being comprehensive in the question set.

It just isn't worth building the extra question set to cover each and every eventuality.

Such is modern life.

edited to add: no real human underwriter I know would penalise in these circumstances.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th July 18:30

All that jazz

7,632 posts

145 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
Get your daughter to hook up with a native British chap then it won't be a problem. smile

recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
craigjm said:
Your NCB over and above 5 years doesn't generally make any difference anyway and you still go down to three years once you have had an incident and it is probably a similar thing with years driving experience once you exceed 5 years.

I suggest that he looks at the immigration rules that were in place when he was born because if both his parents are British and he was naturalised immediately it may allow him to actually answer no to that question. However, it would be worth raising it as an issue to the insurance ombudsman to see if the view has changed since that Elephant quote in 2010 and some of the newspapers would love a good story like that too.

Bottom line is, if it feels discriminatory then challenge it as that's the only way things will change.
I guess i probably will advise him to challenge it. it was not even the best quote he got so he probably would just ignore it.
As for the immigration policy, he did not need to naturalise at all. Anyway that is what i am being told. Both parents are Welsh and English and he has 2 birth certificates. One is a register of birth by the UK embassy and one is an NL birth certificate. This was before 1983 when the rules changed
Used the register of birth to get his passport. Any way just thought i could give him some advise as we are all a close knit family.


recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
All that jazz said:
Get your daughter to hook up with a native British chap then it won't be a problem. smile
haha.

I did advise her to do that, but which children listen to their parents these days?

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
I guess i probably will advise him to challenge it. it was not even the best quote he got so he probably would just ignore it.
As for the immigration policy, he did not need to naturalise at all. Anyway that is what i am being told. Both parents are Welsh and English and he has 2 birth certificates. One is a register of birth by the UK embassy and one is an NL birth certificate. This was before 1983 when the rules changed
Used the register of birth to get his passport. Any way just thought i could give him some advise as we are all a close knit family.
Or get him to ring the company that comes top on his quote search. A human should be able to sort it out quite quickly.
Depends on which company it is as some don't allow their humans to think.

Another way would be to lie and tick that he was born in the UK. No way would the policy be cancelled in these circumstances.

snorky782

1,115 posts

98 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
recycled said:
Exactly my point. Whatever computer algorithm they use is totally wrong. I know who is more of a risk and who is more likely to cause a crash.
probably why the insurance premiums are totally miscalculated anyway, if you can deem a holder with way more NCB and way more experience driving is more of a risk because he happens to be born abroad.

Do most people agree that this is fair? and if you are running your own risk analysis in your insurance company , which candidate is of a greater risk to you?

Edited by recycled on Saturday 30th July 18:06
Do you really know, or do you just want the answer to be the your kid is a great risk and others are worse risks?

Insurers base everything on experience and projections. It fits you into a demographic, not as an individual. If you want individual underwriting then take your business to Lloyds of London. I don't think you'll like the price though.

Many people complain about many things with insurance. It always seems to be the thing that they feel is unfair that penalises them or their family.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
snorky782 said:
Do you really know, or do you just want the answer to be the your kid is a great risk and others are worse risks?

Insurers base everything on experience and projections. It fits you into a demographic, not as an individual. If you want individual underwriting then take your business to Lloyds of London. I don't think you'll like the price though.

Many people complain about many things with insurance. It always seems to be the thing that they feel is unfair that penalises them or their family.
I will 100% guarantee that no insurer has data that anyone who moved the the UK when they were one year old is a worse risk than those born here.

snorky782

1,115 posts

98 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
desolate said:
I will 100% guarantee that no insurer has data that anyone who moved the the UK when they were one year old is a worse risk than those born here.
And I'll agree 100% with that, but as you've said they will have data than non UK born drivers are worse risks (or at least some will, others may not care or see them as a better risk) and that is the crux in a simplified comparison website.

Agree not everyone is a Loon wink

recycled

Original Poster:

122 posts

203 months

Saturday 30th July 2016
quotequote all
desolate said:
Or get him to ring the company that comes top on his quote search. A human should be able to sort it out quite quickly.
Depends on which company it is as some don't allow their humans to think.

Another way would be to lie and tick that he was born in the UK. No way would the policy be cancelled in these circumstances.
Looks like you were reading our minds. In the time this was going on, he rang and also sent an email on their contact me link.
Guess what?, he got a call back and they offered an even cheaper price. Both cheaper than the on line quotes regardless of where he was born.

Unfortunately, it still was not the best overall quote he got, bearing in mind he wants all sorts of cover including European and what's not, so he would still need to move on and find something else.
Just goes to show that some databases and computer programmes still cannot replace good old fashioned common sense in some cases, like this one.

Just wondering if other forum members have ever come across this kind of issues, not just in insurance but in any other on-line form filling or other things that require place of birth.
I never subscribe to anyone telling untruths on any forms by the way, as it always has a way of coming back to haunt you. Insurance companies always like to wriggle out of things on a technicality.

if he was born in the Netherlands then so be it. Just have to live with the consequences.