A34 Tragic crash

[Welshbeef]

fblm said:

Perhaps we should wait to see if he's actually guilty?

You don't just get arrested charged and bailed for dangerous driving without there being quite a bit more than a hunch.

[All that jazz]

Welshbeef said:

mondeoman said:

Its in the inside lane, full of trucks going uphill - they aint gonna be speeding, at all.

But they pull out and try to overtake each other over many miles - they certainly do go head to head up the hills.

If trucks were banned from the L2 the entire length that could help.

It would not help at all and in fact would make the situation worse. You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Have you ever driven a truck? Have you ever driven one along that stretch? I wager the answer to that is no. I used to travel that stretch every day for years pulling containers out of Southampton for the north and if you have a heavy load you need to keep the momentum rolling on those steep hills as much as possible otherwise you end up nearly down in your low box crawling up at 15mph causing carnage behind you as everyone fights to get round you. If you're running empty or light then the vast majority of modern trucks will go up those hills at 50-56 which keeps the traffic flowing so long as other drivers yield where they can - which was a huge part of the problem before the lane 2 7.5t ban.

Limiting trucks to lane 1 will achieve nothing other than unnecessary increased frustration which leads to even more dangerous driving. Also it appears to have escaped your attention that the crash happened completely in lane 1, ie. the same lane that you want all truckers banished to, which, due to the significant speed differences between loaded and empty trucks would result in even more tailgating and crushed cars that get in the way because they refuse to overtake. Looking at the pics in the article that appears to be what's happened as there are no slip roads on that section of the hill so it's quite likely that the rear truck was following another large sized vehicle up the hill which pulled out to overtake the Corsa crawling behind the slow loaded truck in front, leaving the rear truck nowhere to go hence the impact. I witnessed loads of near misses like that.

Petition for the speed limit to be reduced even further if you want but all you'll achieve is even more frustration from both truckers and car drivers as the heavy trucks will no longer be able to get a run up and so the road will be reduced to 5-10mph til they get over the brow. If you think that it won't affect the speed of lane 2 when lane 1 traffic is going that slow I can tell you for sure that there'd be little speed differential because that's just how people react when going past slow moving traffic.

The problem could be mostly solved by adding a 3rd crawler lane for each of 2 big hills between Chilton and either side of East Ilsley which would allow the heavy trucks to keep their momentum going as much as possible but also allow the lighter trucks and heavier vans to maintain their progress without impeding on the faster flow of the cars.

If you don't have any experience of driving a max weight truck then it's easy to sit acting all "armchair expert" spouting nonsense about reducing the speed limit and banishing all heavies to lane 1 would insta-fix the issue when it quite simply won't.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

You don't just get arrested charged and bailed for dangerous driving without there being quite a bit more than a hunch.

The only police statement so far says he was arrested and bailed, not charged, which typically means thy don't have enough evidence to charge him. Of course that could change but wishing him a lengthy incarceration on absolutely no evidence other than being arrested and bailed seems premature in the extreme.

[Welshbeef]

All that jazz said:

It would not help at all and in fact would make the situation worse. You have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Have you ever driven a truck? Have you ever driven one along that stretch? I wager the answer to that is no. I used to travel that stretch every day for years pulling containers out of Southampton for the north and if you have a heavy load you need to keep the momentum rolling on those steep hills as much as possible otherwise you end up nearly down in your low box crawling up at 15mph causing carnage behind you as everyone fights to get round you. If you're running empty or light then the vast majority of modern trucks will go up those hills at 50-56 which keeps the traffic flowing so long as other drivers yield where they can - which was a huge part of the problem before the lane 2 7.5t ban.

Limiting trucks to lane 1 will achieve nothing other than unnecessary increased frustration which leads to even more dangerous driving. Also it appears to have escaped your attention that the crash happened completely in lane 1, ie. the same lane that you want all truckers banished to, which, due to the significant speed differences between loaded and empty trucks would result in even more tailgating and crushed cars that get in the way because they refuse to overtake. Looking at the pics in the article that appears to be what's happened as there are no slip roads on that section of the hill so it's quite likely that the rear truck was following another large sized vehicle up the hill which pulled out to overtake the Corsa crawling behind the slow loaded truck in front, leaving the rear truck nowhere to go hence the impact. I witnessed loads of near misses like that.

Petition for the speed limit to be reduced even further if you want but all you'll achieve is even more frustration from both truckers and car drivers as the heavy trucks will no longer be able to get a run up and so the road will be reduced to 5-10mph til they get over the brow. If you think that it won't affect the speed of lane 2 when lane 1 traffic is going that slow I can tell you for sure that there'd be little speed differential because that's just how people react when going past slow moving traffic.

The problem could be mostly solved by adding a 3rd crawler lane for each of 2 big hills between Chilton and either side of East Ilsley which would allow the heavy trucks to keep their momentum going as much as possible but also allow the lighter trucks and heavier vans to maintain their progress without impeding on the faster flow of the cars.

If you don't have any experience of driving a max weight truck then it's easy to sit acting all "armchair expert" spouting nonsense about reducing the speed limit and banishing all heavies to lane 1 would insta-fix the issue when it quite simply won't.

I se it often miles of slightly faster on one truck overtaking finally he pulls in only for the truck he has just past to swerve out and try to overtake the truck which has just past him. That is an utter farce.


Much higher taxes on truck for 7am-7pm travel on the roads forcing them to go at night when the roads are much quieter adding valuable capacity to the roads. We cannot stop the cars as most are commuters so have no option.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

I se it often miles of slightly faster on one truck overtaking finally he pulls in only for the truck he has just past to swerve out and try to overtake the truck which has just past him. That is an utter farce.

I must be lucky as I've never seen that happen on the A34 or any other dual carriageway.

Edited for sleepy eyes correction to word ordering.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 12th August 08:07

[Digga]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

What they need to do is turn it into a motorway, or sinificantly improve large sections.

This and the many and various motorway closures are symptoms of the same thing; an abject lack of investment in road infrastructure by successive UK governments for 30 years.

One awkward issue is that for large parts of the A road network, the 80s and 90s saw their status gradually erroded from trunk roads to over-glorified streets. The bits of A road that were enhanced - like the A34 in Oxfordshire and Berkshire - were often done half-heartedly. Part of this was the media allowing oxygen for idiots like Swampy, but that's another issue.

If you Google any UK motorway name and the word crash or accident (or regularly listen to traffic news) you get a litany of accidents that, in large part, are down to the network functioning way beyond design capacity.

[Europa1]

heebeegeetee said:

Thread already on it chap. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

It was a brave effort.

[Jockman]

Aren't road stats showing a huge reduction in fatalities? - no comfort to this poor family, of course.

I was told recently that (approx) 35 people per day were killed on the roads. It's now down to 5.

[All that jazz]

Welshbeef said:

I se it often miles of slightly faster on one truck overtaking finally he pulls in only for the truck he has just past to swerve out and try to overtake the truck which has just past him. That is an utter farce.

To a non-trucker, yes. As mentioned before, if you can maintain speed and come up behind another vehicle that is doing 20-30mph less than you are you going to brake and sit behind it or are you going to use the available road space and overtake it? If you were driving your car you wouldn't sit behind something slower if there was nothing to prevent you from overtaking and the same applies to trucks, even more so really as it's much more difficult to regain lost speed in a truck than in other vehicles. The issues arise when the overtaking vehicle doesn't apply some common sense before commencing the maneouvre. If the slower vehicle is already approaching the brow of the hill then it is better to ease off and stay behind as their weight will carry them over the speed limiter as they go down the other side and disappear off into the distance, but that all falls apart if you've got another speed limited vehicle alongside you that doesn't have that weight advantage - what do you do? Do you think "fk you, your problem" and let your truck run down the hill, hanging him out to dry in lane 2, or do you yield yet again and ride your brakes down the hill behind him and waste an opportunity to put some distance between you both? Or do you use option 3 and hold back so he can complete his overtake, then use your weight to quickly overtake him down the hill where in all likelihood the speed differential would see you past them and back in lane 1 with minimal inconvenience to other road users.

I appreciate whichever option we choose is going to be far too much inconvenience for the all important car drivers but I can assure you it's much less inconvenience to let us pass each other on hills where there's a greater speed differential than it is to try and pass on the flat where overtakes can often take miles because neither trucker will yield.

Beef said:

Much higher taxes on truck for 7am-7pm travel on the roads forcing them to go at night when the roads are much quieter adding valuable capacity to the roads. We cannot stop the cars as most are commuters so have no option.

Once again you are spouting nonsense because you have no understanding nor knowledge of the transport industry, plus it's a topic that has been done to death on countless occasions in the past so I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to argue this one with.

[s3fella]

Is there a reason that the bars that go down the side of HGV trailers between the wheels to stop peds and vehicles going underneath are not replicated on the rear of a trailer, so that lower slung vehicles don't submarine under them in a rear end shunt.
Not sure it would have helped in this case, but in other cases, if a car goes under a trailer, it must make it difficult to extract the occupants if nothing else?

[All that jazz]

s3fella said:

Is there a reason that the bars that go down the side of HGV trailers between the wheels to stop peds and vehicles going underneath are not replicated on the rear of a trailer

They are.

[Jockman]

All that jazz said:

s3fella said:

Is there a reason that the bars that go down the side of HGV trailers between the wheels to stop peds and vehicles going underneath are not replicated on the rear of a trailer

They are.

Is that quite new or have they only had limited success in the past?

[All that jazz]

Jockman said:

Is that quite new or have they only had limited success in the past?

They're not going to withstand 1.5 tonnes of metal being shoved against them at speed by something potentially weighing 44 tonnes...

[Jockman]

All that jazz said:

Jockman said:

Is that quite new or have they only had limited success in the past?

They're not going to withstand 1.5 tonnes of metal being shoved against them at speed by something potentially weighing 44 tonnes...

Fair comment. If anything, they won't be designed to stop a 1.5 tonne car stone dead and all the consequences >this< would have.

I've had indirect dealings with this happening. It's not nice.

[Otispunkmeyer]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

Welshbeef said:

sidicks said:

The authorities appear to be focussing on dangerous driving, with no suggestion that the cause was 'speed' related, hence no justification to change the speed limit...

I know that road very well and trust me a lower speed limit would make a difference.

I know this is PH and I for one like open roads etc but no it is a terrible accident hotspot so so so many. Lower the speed limit.

its a horrible accident- i can't imagine what the father must be going through- as welshbeef mentioned this is all too common

I live 500m from the A34, the problems i suspect won't be solved by speed reduction, as they are caused by:

1. Very short on and off slip roads that are intrinsically dangerous- the result is lots of lorries changing lanes and having to brake late and hard- actually cars have to brake whilst on the carriageway
2. poorly designed road layout that leaves poor vision around lots of corners- lots of exits and entrances are poorly sighted- the exit off the A4 northbound is a case in point- as is tothill
3. really poor road signs- the turnoff for my road is only signposted right on the junction
4. the fact that it joins 3 motorways together- the M3, M4 and M40. People basically drive it like an extension of a motorway, which it clearly isn't.
5. Lack of safety zones- the hard shoulders are mostly non existant, and the laybys are not frequent enough - they are also frequently not set back from the road.

The difficulty is bunching traffic caused by all the factors above.

What they need to do is turn it into a motorway, or sinificantly improve large sections.

I don't live anywhere near the A34. But on the few occasions I have traversed it my overriding impression is that its too small a road for the amount and type of traffic it takes. It is jam packed with cars, lots of lorries and everyone is hurtling down it as quick as they can. It is just not fit for the purpose it is currently being used for. Reducing the speed limits won't change that. It just seems fundamentally unsuitable.

The nearest road to the A34 that I think the A34 should be like is the A19 going out toward the M1. Dual carriage way in much the same state; no hard shoulder, lots of junctions with short or no slips etc but the level of traffic on there means you can drive at 70 and have plenty of time and space to sort yourself out.

[130R]

It's an extremely busy road usually rammed with trucks. They need to either improve the road capacity or reduce the amount of freight traffic.

I don't think the road is any worse than a typical A road, it just has far more traffic.

[PurpleTurtle]

I've been driving the A34 regularly for 20+ years and agrre with all of what PugwasHDJ80.

My next door neighbour is a TVP copper and when he told me there had been a fatal on the A34 the other evening I just knew that it would involve an HGV on that stretch of road.

When I started driving in the late 80's HGV drivers seemed to be a fairly affable bunch, in general terms they would indicate, wait to pull out and go. In recent years I've noticed a trend for some of them to just bully their way out regardless. I let out an Iceland HGV driver on the A55 in North Wales on Saturday, to pass another HGV. Traffic was heavy, after he'd pulled round one and moved back left I got alongside to pass, he was then trying to basically swipe me into the central reservation, desperately trying to pull out again, when I couldn't complete my overtake of him as traffic had bunched in front of me. I had my wife and kid in the car, the missus was petrified. This bloke was trying to ram us off the road, just so he could gain a few yards over another HGV in front of him.

It makes me wonder if drivers are under so much pressure of time to deliver for the 'now now now' world of instant gratification we live in that they take risks that they wouldn't have done 30 years ago.

Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 12th August 11:27

[Jockman]

PurpleTurtle said:

When I started driving in the late 80's HGV drivers seemed to be a fairly affable bunch, in general terms they would indicate, wait to pull out and go. In recent years I've noticed a trend for some of them to just bully their way out regardless. I let out an Iceland HGV driver on the A55 in North Wales on Saturday, to pass another HGV. Traffic was heavy, after he'd pulled round one and moved back left I got alongside to pass, he was then trying to basically swipe me into the central reservation, desperately trying to pull out again, when I couldn't complete my overtake of him as traffic had bunched in front of me. I had my wife and kid in the car, the missus was petrified. This bloke was trying to ram us off the orad, just so he could gain a few yards over another HGV in frontof him.

It makes me wonder if drivers are under so much pressure of time to deliver for the 'now now now' world of instant gratification we live in that they take risks that they wouldn't have done 30 years ago.

I drive the A55 nearly every day. I've seen what you are saying but only on a very rare occasion.

Yes, these Companies do get fined if they miss their delivery slot. Maintaining revs can make the difference to these drivers.

They are also 'hampered' by the taco and speed limiter rules, though these are meant to make them safer.

It really is a different world to 80s HGVs.

[s3fella]

HGV driver was relatively well paid many years ago, less so now. I think this has contributed to what some may perceive as a reduction in driving standards. The availability of technology, MPG quotas, draughting, slipstreaming, JIT plus increased traffic levels from all types of vehicles has certainly added to the pressure of the whole job also.

I travel the A34 regularly and did so before the M4 improvements. It is certainly far better from a traffic flow perspective, but this has attracted far more traffic that would have previously used M40 / M4. I am not truck bashing here at all, but when I think of the a34, I immediately think of the trucks "elephant racing" pretty much every time I use it. I cannot honestly think of another road in UK I perceive in the same way. Because of this, I keep as far away from them as possible. But as other road users chase MPG, I often seen cars sitting 10m behind in the draught of a truck, staring at their MPG gauges, with no clue what is going on in front, or cars and vans passing an HGV at 5mph or so faster than it, or just sitting there in the blind spots.
With the gradients involved, it cannot be easy for an HGVer, so I keep the flip out of their way. Get past them quickly, don't dawdle in their blind spots, (not easy in flowing but queueing traffic) and if you need to be behind one at lower speed in L1, keep the flip a look out behind and try to get an escape route sorted if needed.

It's much much better than it used to be, but it's still pretty awful. But I am not sure a 50mph limit will help. RIP to this poor family and sympathy to their friends and family.

[bedonde]

PurpleTurtle said:

When I started driving in the late 80's HGV drivers seemed to be a fairly affable bunch, in general terms they would indicate, wait to pull out and go. In recent years I've noticed a trend for some of them to just bully their way out regardless.

Edited by PurpleTurtle on Friday 12th August 11:27

This. Happens sooooo often on that stretch of road, one of the reasons I fancy a dashcam.