The Gender Unicorn
Discussion
usbooz said:
What seems to be being suggested by some that the labels of Trans, Queer, Cis, Demi boy, Demi girl, whatever you like, etc are all meaningless and we should just all be happy with person. This is coming from the majority demographic who are secure in the knowledge that without the extra labels their identity wont really be put at risk. There is nothing inherently wrong with allowing people to have a kinship with others who share a characteristic, interest or identity, to allow them to have a language that identifies that kinship. For the majority to deny the language of the connection and identity is a form of oppression. Erasing the language is an attempt to erasing the identity behind it.
A person can identify themselves as they like. To take it a step further though why should gender be a special case? If we are doing it for gender then why not do it for Otherkin as well? So the forms would not only have to have lots of boxes for gender identity they would need lots of boxes for species identity as well. The thing about the term person is it is all inclusive. 
plasticpig said:
A person can identify themselves as they like. To take it a step further though why should gender be a special case? If we are doing it for gender then why not do it for Otherkin as well? So the forms would not only have to have lots of boxes for gender identity they would need lots of boxes for species identity as well. The thing about the term person is it is all inclusive.
I'd say its about balance and appropriateness. You can take it to either extreme, Have an equality form that's a stack of paper an inch think with every option known to mankind, or you could eliminate all language that represents diversity, but I don't think the world would benefit by eliminating diversity or the language to describe it. So do you include otherkin, there's no reason to eliminate their identities or language, do they need to be on a equality form, I don't know, unlikely at the moment, but I don't know enough about them or have the authority to decide. To put it into contact of transgender though. In the last 20 - 30 years the estimates for the trans population has gone from 1 in 20,000 (0.005%) to I think the latest estimate's is 1 - 2%. So back in the 90s you wouldn't have seen any trans options on equality forms, but you might now, and that rate of re-evaluation of the figures is significant, Just the uncertainty of 1% or 2% doubles the trans population and whilst it seems like 1% is only a small figure to cater too, in terms of total population its a hell of a lot of people, and personally I think the numbers are still well short of reality.
So back to otherkin, maybe in time it will it be discovered they are a natural form/evolution of the human (or otherwise) condition and exist in significant numbers such that they suffer discrimination and inequality then maybe they should be there. But really I just see their use in this discussion as another form of nullification, a way to say trans identities are too extreme to be included by likening them to extreme identities. But if your drawing the line in that direction then draw it in the other way too and try an eliminate ethnicity and see how you get on.
230TE said:
ATG said:
Do you mind if I call you a massive arse?
I'm not sure that kind of language is entirely respectful towards the amply proportioned posterior community. And there are plenty of them in Norfolk. Especially Thetford.
GroundEffect said:
There is some validity to this effort as I when I were a lad - being bisexual - I found it very, very difficult. Someone who is straight cannot possibly imagine the pain and complete head-f
kery that comes with being 'different' in this way. I was on the verge of suicide for a very long time because of this. Real, mental, torment.
So I think whilst a lot of this is far too militant, it does ring true with me that the support needs to be there for the kids that are struggling that it doesn't matter who you are or who you like. If you consider as well that if you add up all that fall under the banner of 'queer', you've got over 10% of the population. That's a big chunk. And they need help.
Good post.kery that comes with being 'different' in this way. I was on the verge of suicide for a very long time because of this. Real, mental, torment. So I think whilst a lot of this is far too militant, it does ring true with me that the support needs to be there for the kids that are struggling that it doesn't matter who you are or who you like. If you consider as well that if you add up all that fall under the banner of 'queer', you've got over 10% of the population. That's a big chunk. And they need help.
FlyingMeeces said:
It's a funny kind of feminist who seeks to define a woman by nothing else than whether (they believe) she has a uterus.
A lesbian friend of mine has been called a TERF and subjected to abuse for taking the, in my view entirely reasonable, position that "there are no lesbians with penises".fluffnik said:
FlyingMeeces said:
It's a funny kind of feminist who seeks to define a woman by nothing else than whether (they believe) she has a uterus.
A lesbian friend of mine has been called a TERF and subjected to abuse for taking the, in my view entirely reasonable, position that "there are no lesbians with penises".Either defining what life chances people should get and how they are permitted to live their lives on the grounds of what organs you believe they have is wrong, or not - some people calling themselves feminists seem to get caught up in that one.
A penis is an overgrown clitoris, a clitoris is a small penis. Practically speaking they are identical in early foetal development. People are born with a very wide range of 'in-between' setups of chromosomes, internal and external organs and attendant hormone systems - the two 'binary' setups are more similar, and less common, than people like to think. That physical presentation defines sex, but not gender - it cannot. Gender is brain, not body. Most lucky sods get a matched set, body to brain, a few of us don't and have to make after-market alterations to fix the mismatch.
So yes, of course you get trans lesbians, and you get trans gay guys, and you get bi and pan and whateverthehell else trans folk, and you get straight trans folk. Why on earth wouldn't you? And guess what - sometimes we even end up with cis girlfriends, boyfriends, husbands, wives. And yes, a cis gay bloke whose boyfriend or husband is a trans man is still gay. And so on. We're kinda repeating on a theme here so I think I'll call it a night.
I dont think I like the sound of "TERFs", my viewpoint is that there are lots of other types out there, I am a straight male, I am attracted to women and am happy being male, but I fully understand that other men may not be happy with being male and/or may feel attracted to other men, the terminology doesnt really matter to me as what other people do in their bedrooms is none of my business.
I just think I have had it easy, I cant see why anyone wants to make it difficult for someone else, I dont think anyone is trans for a lark, a laugh. We had a Policeman at GMP who went off male and came back as a woman a few months later, there was some daft joking but really, most seemed to get the enormity of that this person had done, and been through, the effect on his family life etc. It isnt something anyone does on a whim, it is hugely brave and I cant imagine going down that route unless it is an all consuming need, so not sure why these "TERFS" need to stick their noses in somebody elses life "No Lesbians with Penises" ffs, it is just terminology, not how that individual feels, whatever works for them.
I had a guy work for me at the Police who used to used public transport and used to get upset by a "Tranny" (Male to female) on the bus and would come in ranting, turns out the trans person, I enquired as to what this person had done to offend him, absolutely nothing, just their presence was bothering him, that is what really made me think, the guy was a lazy dick and his opinion made me consider what I really thought and I realised it just doesnt bother me one iota but him being like that bothered me a lot.
I just think I have had it easy, I cant see why anyone wants to make it difficult for someone else, I dont think anyone is trans for a lark, a laugh. We had a Policeman at GMP who went off male and came back as a woman a few months later, there was some daft joking but really, most seemed to get the enormity of that this person had done, and been through, the effect on his family life etc. It isnt something anyone does on a whim, it is hugely brave and I cant imagine going down that route unless it is an all consuming need, so not sure why these "TERFS" need to stick their noses in somebody elses life "No Lesbians with Penises" ffs, it is just terminology, not how that individual feels, whatever works for them.
I had a guy work for me at the Police who used to used public transport and used to get upset by a "Tranny" (Male to female) on the bus and would come in ranting, turns out the trans person, I enquired as to what this person had done to offend him, absolutely nothing, just their presence was bothering him, that is what really made me think, the guy was a lazy dick and his opinion made me consider what I really thought and I realised it just doesnt bother me one iota but him being like that bothered me a lot.
WinstonWolf said:
And therein lies the problem. Your body is your gender, if your own brain disagrees with this you're never going to accept the viewpoint of others.
Happily, gender is not a participation event: nobody can see what's in your brain, so second party ever gets to decide anyone's gender. You know yours and I know mine. I accept your word for yours, because that's the only way I have to know what your gender is; the only way anybody has to know what any other person's gender is. What bits they have informs an educated guess, but it's only a guess with a significant possibility of being incorrect, and of course that also involves rather more interest in someone else's genitalia than is generally appropriate unless you're their doctor or considering going to bed with them.
J4CKO said:
I just think I have had it easy, I cant see why anyone wants to make it difficult for someone else...
I had a guy work for me at the Police who used to used public transport and used to get upset by a "Tranny" (Male to female) on the bus and would come in ranting, turns out the trans person, I enquired as to what this person had done to offend him, absolutely nothing, just their presence was bothering him, that is what really made me think, the guy was a lazy dick and his opinion made me consider what I really thought and I realised it just doesnt bother me one iota but him being like that bothered me a lot.
Indeed, just 'get on with your own stuff', life can be a struggle as it is at times, best to ignore the cretins as much as possible, as time moves on, they'll gradually reduce.I had a guy work for me at the Police who used to used public transport and used to get upset by a "Tranny" (Male to female) on the bus and would come in ranting, turns out the trans person, I enquired as to what this person had done to offend him, absolutely nothing, just their presence was bothering him, that is what really made me think, the guy was a lazy dick and his opinion made me consider what I really thought and I realised it just doesnt bother me one iota but him being like that bothered me a lot.
FlyingMeeces said:
WinstonWolf said:
And therein lies the problem. Your body is your gender, if your own brain disagrees with this you're never going to accept the viewpoint of others.
Happily, gender is not a participation event: nobody can see what's in your brain, so second party ever gets to decide anyone's gender. You know yours and I know mine. I accept your word for yours, because that's the only way I have to know what your gender is; the only way anybody has to know what any other person's gender is. What bits they have informs an educated guess, but it's only a guess with a significant possibility of being incorrect, and of course that also involves rather more interest in someone else's genitalia than is generally appropriate unless you're their doctor or considering going to bed with them.
WinstonWolf said:
FlyingMeeces said:
WinstonWolf said:
And therein lies the problem. Your body is your gender, if your own brain disagrees with this you're never going to accept the viewpoint of others.
Happily, gender is not a participation event: nobody can see what's in your brain, so second party ever gets to decide anyone's gender. You know yours and I know mine. I accept your word for yours, because that's the only way I have to know what your gender is; the only way anybody has to know what any other person's gender is. What bits they have informs an educated guess, but it's only a guess with a significant possibility of being incorrect, and of course that also involves rather more interest in someone else's genitalia than is generally appropriate unless you're their doctor or considering going to bed with them.
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
FlyingMeeces said:
WinstonWolf said:
And therein lies the problem. Your body is your gender, if your own brain disagrees with this you're never going to accept the viewpoint of others.
Happily, gender is not a participation event: nobody can see what's in your brain, so second party ever gets to decide anyone's gender. You know yours and I know mine. I accept your word for yours, because that's the only way I have to know what your gender is; the only way anybody has to know what any other person's gender is. What bits they have informs an educated guess, but it's only a guess with a significant possibility of being incorrect, and of course that also involves rather more interest in someone else's genitalia than is generally appropriate unless you're their doctor or considering going to bed with them.
I take it you're another one who failed biology?
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