The Gender Unicorn
Discussion
WinstonWolf said:
Rather than shoot your mouth off again let's see your proof of this "significant possibility". If you don't know what significant means I'm happy to spell it out for you.
I take it you're another one who failed biology?
Better than getting a D- in maths because you failed to appreciate the significance of 1% in the context of 64 million people.I take it you're another one who failed biology?
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Randy Winkman said:
Gender:
noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
exactly , unless you are Winston Wolf ... noun
1.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
Randy Winkman said:
I'm not sure other mammals have gender. But if a male gorilla was acting more like a female gorilla he'd have the female gender.
If your point is they don't have gender then you can't make the above statement.If a male gorilla acts like a female gorilla is he female?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no.
I must say, I do really rather struggle with this.
I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
The Moose said:
I must say, I do really rather struggle with this.
I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
But what are people who are XXY, or XYY, or have just a single working X chromosome (technically XO, Turner syndrome)? Or girls with androgen insensitivity syndromes and the like? (Girls who have X, Y chromosomes but on whose embryonic development androgens like testosterone had no effect, and who therefore have external genitalia typical of X, X baby girls; their condition is usually spotted about 14 years later when someone tries to figure out why they didn't start their period…)I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
Vehicles (or anything that's constructed) aren't a great analogy, but - what if you insisted that there exist ONLY bikes and SUVs and I had an MX5?
Or a sleeper with something ridiculous under the hood?
I doubt anyone is going to flame you because you're not in the slightest being unpleasant about anything.
I suspect maybe you'll one day have that 'getting it' moment like other posters have described - I did, actually, with trans people, shamefully late in my life, which is something I'll always regret - I would have a much psychologically safer life (eg spent less time suicidal) and be needing at least one fewer surgery if I'd had the language for it all pre-puberty… I made a new friend, during my first attempt at a degree, who then became a very close friend, and who then came out to me and very patiently explained it all. Lightbulb moment, big time.
WinstonWolf said:
Randy Winkman said:
I'm not sure other mammals have gender. But if a male gorilla was acting more like a female gorilla he'd have the female gender.
If your point is they don't have gender then you can't make the above statement.If a male gorilla acts like a female gorilla is he female?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no.
Edited by Randy Winkman on Sunday 21st August 21:54
The Moose said:
I must say, I do really rather struggle with this.
I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
Rather than think of everything from the physical side of things, which is understandable as it has the most emphasis in experience, its what we see and feel and if everything aligns itself, the psychological identity can easily go unnoticed in the shadow of the physical identify. But instead approach the idea from the psychological identity. So instead of viewing a trans woman as "a fella wants to be a chick" but rather the trans woman is a woman and always has been, she has a female psychological identity but is saddled with a male body, was brought up as a male and probably learned to act the role quite convincingly to the point they convinced themselves even. But the psychological identity is the immutable one. Nothing can be done to change it. However we can change the physical to closely match the inner identity and make the person whole. In some respects its an extreme birth defect, the trans woman is a woman with a male body.I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
Then when you consider the psychological identity is the primary identity of a person. If you like consider we are in the sci-fi world and we ascend to higher intelligence and leave our physical form behind, the thing which is left if the psychological identity and intelligence.
Now consider the psychological identity is what makes us us. Our personality etc. Personalities can't really be taught or forced. To a degree they are present at birth and then form from both experience but mainly an immutable something which is within us. Our personalities are all unique, nobody try's to force it into a binary pigeon hole, nobody questions where on a spectrum of infinite possibilities any individual personality sits to say it should be different. We can override it with teaching and societal pressure such as teaching morality, much like a trans woman can learn to be a man, but the original personality is still under there suppressed.
Now gender when freed of the physical pigeon hole comes from exactly the same place as personality, is as equally diverse and unique, and there you have it gender variance.
As for the SUV and motorcycle analogy, don't think of marriage as an SUV because whenever you asked for transport the only thing available was an SUV and if you wanted two wheels you specifically had to ask for a motorcycle. But rather view them both as vehicles, and asking for a vehicle can get you either an suv or a motorcycle. They are both vehicles, they both do the same job of getting you from A to B but different people want a different experience, but to the same goal
Edited by p2c on Sunday 21st August 22:45
The Moose said:
I must say, I do really rather struggle with this.
I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
flamed what what ? I can just about get my head around the fact that a fella wants to be a chick and vice versa (and in some cases the physical changes that happen to make it so), however where it all falls down for me is how someone can be anything other than male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, XX or XY if you prefer.
It's a bit like marriage - for me, that's the union of a man and a woman. For me, that's always been my understanding. I'm not against same sex couples (or should that be same gender?) and I applaud civil partnerships but to me it's like trying to say a SUV is a motorcycle.
No doubt I'll get 'flamed' on here for my viewpoints...
admitting you don't understand it ? but not placing a moral value on how you are better because you are cisgender and heterosexual .
confusing physical sexual characteristics with Gender ?
you might get flamed for your sky fairy views on Marriage
Randy Winkman said:
I'm just saying that gender is about how someone acts, not how their genitalia is. As per my dictionary quote. Edited to add that my point about other animals not really having a gender is because they do not understand the idea of gender roles so cant make any choice about whether to act "male" or "female".
Exactly Randy - this is one of the key areas that the bigots refuse to accept the facts accepted by and position of the Scientific and Clinical communities on , when confusing and conflating anything to do with gender identity and sexuality in creating their world view of 'Normal' ( cis, hetero, 'nilla) and 'Perverts' ( LGBT and /or any kind of kinky )...Edited by Randy Winkman on Sunday 21st August 21:54
mph1977 said:
Exactly Randy - this is one of the key areas that the bigots refuse to accept the facts accepted by and position of the Scientific and Clinical communities on , when confusing and conflating anything to do with gender identity and sexuality in creating their world view of 'Normal' ( cis, hetero, 'nilla) and 'Perverts' ( LGBT and /or any kind of kinky )...
Possibly part of the confusion is due to a rather Victorian reluctance to use the word "sex" to describe the biological distinction between male and female. The OED defines gender as, among other things, "a euphemism for the sex of a human being". Certainly I did not understand the difference between sex and gender when I started this thread. I thought the two terms were interchangeable, and would particularly like to thank Flying Meeces for helping me understand a bit better what this whole debate is about. mph1977 said:
Randy Winkman said:
I'm just saying that gender is about how someone acts, not how their genitalia is. As per my dictionary quote. Edited to add that my point about other animals not really having a gender is because they do not understand the idea of gender roles so cant make any choice about whether to act "male" or "female".
Exactly Randy - this is one of the key areas that the bigots refuse to accept the facts accepted by and position of the Scientific and Clinical communities on , when confusing and conflating anything to do with gender identity and sexuality in creating their world view of 'Normal' ( cis, hetero, 'nilla) and 'Perverts' ( LGBT and /or any kind of kinky )...Edited by Randy Winkman on Sunday 21st August 21:54
If a male gorilla acts female is he female? Of course he f
king isn't...Your point about people avoiding the word "sex" is true. For a while, in relation to South African athlete Caster Semenya, the BBC kept referring to "gender testing". Gender testing wasn't the issue though since her gender was clearly female. i.e. she lives and competes as a woman and is in the female races. The real issue was sex testing.
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Randy Winkman said:
I'm just saying that gender is about how someone acts, not how their genitalia is. As per my dictionary quote. Edited to add that my point about other animals not really having a gender is because they do not understand the idea of gender roles so cant make any choice about whether to act "male" or "female".
Exactly Randy - this is one of the key areas that the bigots refuse to accept the facts accepted by and position of the Scientific and Clinical communities on , when confusing and conflating anything to do with gender identity and sexuality in creating their world view of 'Normal' ( cis, hetero, 'nilla) and 'Perverts' ( LGBT and /or any kind of kinky )...Edited by Randy Winkman on Sunday 21st August 21:54
If a male gorilla acts female is he female? Of course he f
king isn't...mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Randy Winkman said:
I'm just saying that gender is about how someone acts, not how their genitalia is. As per my dictionary quote. Edited to add that my point about other animals not really having a gender is because they do not understand the idea of gender roles so cant make any choice about whether to act "male" or "female".
Exactly Randy - this is one of the key areas that the bigots refuse to accept the facts accepted by and position of the Scientific and Clinical communities on , when confusing and conflating anything to do with gender identity and sexuality in creating their world view of 'Normal' ( cis, hetero, 'nilla) and 'Perverts' ( LGBT and /or any kind of kinky )...Edited by Randy Winkman on Sunday 21st August 21:54
If a male gorilla acts female is he female? Of course he f
king isn't...It gets more like this every day,
Winston,
Your attitude towards trans people is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of sex and gender is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of gender and sexuality is well documented by your postings
Your refusal to accept the scientific consensus on gender identity is well documented by your postings
your baseless and evidence free determination of 'Normal' beign what you consider it to be is well documented by your postings
...
QED
Your attitude towards trans people is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of sex and gender is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of gender and sexuality is well documented by your postings
Your refusal to accept the scientific consensus on gender identity is well documented by your postings
your baseless and evidence free determination of 'Normal' beign what you consider it to be is well documented by your postings
...
QED
mph1977 said:
Winston,
Your attitude towards trans people is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of sex and gender is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of gender and sexuality is well documented by your postings
Your refusal to accept the scientific consensus on gender identity is well documented by your postings
your baseless and evidence free determination of 'Normal' beign what you consider it to be is well documented by your postings
...
QED
Are you being oppressed Stan?Your attitude towards trans people is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of sex and gender is well documented by your postings
Your continued conflation of gender and sexuality is well documented by your postings
Your refusal to accept the scientific consensus on gender identity is well documented by your postings
your baseless and evidence free determination of 'Normal' beign what you consider it to be is well documented by your postings
...
QED
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