The Gender Unicorn

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mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 23rd August 2016
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Art0ir said:
mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.

I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.

That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
provide some proper evidence for your assertions , as all you are doing at present is spouting utter effluent without an evidence base and seemingly no actual knowledge or understanding of the Pathway ...
Last post page 15. I understand fanatics like yourself have an aversion to sensible discussion, but I even laid them out in paragraphs with link and everyfink.
I don;t think you understand what you've actually linked to.

and so far have provided one , old, study that doesn't actually prove what you claim it does...

Art0ir

9,401 posts

169 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.

I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.

That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
provide some proper evidence for your assertions , as all you are doing at present is spouting utter effluent without an evidence base and seemingly no actual knowledge or understanding of the Pathway ...
Last post page 15. I understand fanatics like yourself have an aversion to sensible discussion, but I even laid them out in paragraphs with link and everyfink.
I don;t think you understand what you've actually linked to.

and so far have provided one , old, study that doesn't actually prove what you claim it does...
I truly feel sorry for people like FlyingMeeces when they have asinine people like yourself shouting in their corner. You do a great disservice to the many worthwhile causes on the left...

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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Art0ir said:
I truly feel sorry for people like FlyingMeeces when they have asinine people like yourself shouting in their corner. You do a great disservice to the many worthwhile causes on the left...
Still unable to sustain your baseless argument I see , so you have to jump on to slurs , what a surprise ... still waiting for actual proof of your assertion that regret and de-transition of post -op trans people is common ... rather than something that the tabloid press loves to shout about in the one or two people a decade it actually applies to .

1. I'm not 'left'
2. You have made a massive presumption aobut my gender identtiy in your rush to dismiss / slur me as a SJW.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
There isn't any definition set in stone, there are different sets of definitions for anything. The world isn't either or.
Plus, it's not for you or me, it's for the person to say, they say they are, that's the end of it.

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
I truly feel sorry for people like FlyingMeeces when they have asinine people like yourself shouting in their corner. You do a great disservice to the many worthwhile causes on the left...
Still unable to sustain your baseless argument I see , so you have to jump on to slurs , what a surprise ... still waiting for actual proof of your assertion that regret and de-transition of post -op trans people is common ... rather than something that the tabloid press loves to shout about in the one or two people a decade it actually applies to .

1. I'm not 'left'
2. You have made a massive presumption aobut my gender identtiy in your rush to dismiss / slur me as a SJW.
You are part of the problem, anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot to be shouted down. Stop getting your leotard in such a twist and try discussing sensibly.

Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.

I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.

That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.

ehonda

1,483 posts

204 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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mph1977 said:
oh dear yet another 'expert opinion' passed by someone who can't/ won't distinguish between sex , sexuality and gender ...
Did I claim to be an expert? No, I offered my opinion. If you don't like it that's fine by me.
If you had a basic level of comprehension you will have noticed that my point was that by creating classifications (and they are created by people not biology) we create division and separation, and more classifications = more division = bad. It doesn't matter whether these divisions are gender, sexual preference or skin or hair colour.


ehonda

1,483 posts

204 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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FlyingMeeces said:
Okay, basics first.

L, B and G stand for lesbian, gay and bisexual. .....
Sorry for truncating, but I'm not disagreeing, so not picking apart your post.

I get that the definitions, eg Lesbian, haven't changed but my point was that the set of definitions seems to grow and become more confusing to a simple minded yokel like me. So for hormonal, confused teenagers it must be even more confusing.

I'm all for education, but also I think it's fun and beneficial to find out things for ourselves. The more education that is available the better though.

FlyingMeeces

9,932 posts

210 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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ehonda said:
Sorry for truncating, but I'm not disagreeing, so not picking apart your post.

I get that the definitions, eg Lesbian, haven't changed but my point was that the set of definitions seems to grow and become more confusing to a simple minded yokel like me. So for hormonal, confused teenagers it must be even more confusing.

I'm all for education, but also I think it's fun and beneficial to find out things for ourselves. The more education that is available the better though.
Are there really tons more definitions though? I still only really use the basic handful, especially as you can use 'queer' as (cautious with the audience) shorthand for pretty much any kind of not-heterosexual or not-straight person. What's changed that has rattled you? It's definitely all to the good if I can offer any kind of explanation or reassurance or anything at all really.

Maybe it's just me in my approaching middle age, but teenagers - confused and hormonal or otherwise - seem to learn new things for more easily than I do now at 31 and are rattled by pretty much nothing. To be honest, it would maybe be enough with some of the more specific stuff (I will confess to not having a whole lot of time for orientations - not even sure if that's the right word - like 'demiromantic'…) to just say "there is more, it exists, here is how you can find out if you need to" - but given that it's all still just basically the basic four, really - or five, with intersex, is not a madly long and complex list of terminology. One of the best PSHE lessons I can recall from secondary school was, I think, maybe our very first one. The teacher got out a gigantic sheet of paper and a pen and had us all say every swearword, euphemism and name for a part of the human sexual anatomy we could think of. (Thanks to the efforts of one kid some of us learned a LOT of new words that day hehe ) - the teacher then wrote these down on her bit of paper, which had been divided into 'words for the penis' and so on. This definitely isn't more challenging than that!

I don't think learning the terminology, and the very fundamentals of what it means - even if we expand the whole list to LGBTIAAQ or whatever the hell its supposed to be at the moment - is really an excessive amount of information for teenagers to take on board, it's still just 8 or 10 terms, anyone who tells kids they *should* be identifying as any one of them is a moron, but knowing that they *could*… that's kinda important. Maybe especially so with the even rarer ones, asexuals often end up trying to do all sorts of miserable things in the process of finding out that they honest to god aren't interested in having sex with anybody, the couple of 'ace' people I know both did some pretty risky stuff because they literally didn't know that there was such a thing and kept trying more and more to 'unlock' a door that was never there in the first place.

I think maybe kids deserve more credit than we give them, really. Similarly even with really little ones - and for clarity I am not proposing to explain in detail what 'genderqueer' means to primary school aged children - I think adults struggle with this far, far more than youngsters ever will. Just like with new technology, really. irked

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
The definition you chose is not set in stone, first line I saw is from Merriam,
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/man
Full Definition of man
d (1) : one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (2)

There are many definitions. The term 'set in stone' means they are not exempt from change.
There are definitions above, what I mean is not's for you to say in the very specific reference to my mate, or others. He's not a bloke, by at least one criteria above. You have control over how you present yourself, not others.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
I meant the first link, regardless it's one of the definitions in the dictionary. It is a generally accepted definition. I determine who I am, that's what I have control over. So there are generally accepted definitions. smile

the term 'set in stone' means non-changeable, which was my point.

FlyingMeeces

9,932 posts

210 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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Not set in stone = changeable = exactly what Halb said

Nanook - the idea of gender and sex being two separate things, which may or may not align, is not new. It's not a fad or a trend or 'political correctness', it's the result of many long decades of work and the result of observation of the facts of the lives of tens - hundreds - of thousands of people over the past century or so.

Kids born with sacral agenesis, whose pelvic region may not actually be present at all, still have gender. Blokes who've been blown up or shot or survived terrible burns and have no remaining external genitalia at all still have gender. Intersex children, whose newborn genitalia sometimes defy attempts to categorise them one way or another still have gender. Women whose treatment for advanced cancer not infrequently involves the removal of all pelvic organs still have gender. People born infertile have gender, people who become infertile have gender. I, with a body which regardless of identity cannot participate in baby-making whichever role you think I ought to be playing, or whichever role I might wish I could play, have gender. You can't define gender by reproductive capacity or reproductive role because that's not gender, and it's frankly pretty damned rude to reduce people to a couple of hundred grams of squidgy stuff that their body may or may not have, in any case.

Gender isn't sex, sex isn't gender, gender is identity, it's personal and individual and can only be assessed or described by the way the person whose gender it is expresses it.

You're clearly pretty determined not to learn or develop understanding or anything and that is of course your right, but I don't really understand why you're here, on this thread. Trolling? Recreational arguing? Cruelty? Sheer dogmatism? I can't tell, I don't really care either way, but you're not contributing anything of interest, not even an interesting argument. Maybe call it a day.

People who actually want to ask stuff, go ahead. I don't mind being emailed if you'd rather not put it on here for the conversational vultures to pull apart.

FlyingMeeces

9,932 posts

210 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
That's a really weighted word you used there. Archaic in the extreme. Race and racial identity is very complex, especially in the context of unknowns, but it's not gender and it's not anything like gender. I think there may be some biology/identity division there somewhere too, but it's not for me to speculate about, there are far more able people with opinions on that stuff I'm sure.

Nobody decides they want to be transsexual. They just realise that they are. Many wish that they weren't, due in large part to the contempt with which trans people are treated. Gender dysphoria - which I'm gonna somewhat oversimplify as the medical term for the state of distress a transsexual person experiences as a result of that body-brain mismatch - is horrible, and it's life threatening. It doesn't happen on a whim, nobody would choose that. I cannot emphasise enough, there's no choice involved. It's a state of being. Transitioning (which of course isn't the same as realising you're trans, lots of eg married people or those in very hostile families or communities might not feel able to transition, fearing losing their kids, their partner, or their life) IS a choice, but it's a choice that more or less has suicide as the alternative. If my body matched my brain, I'd be a bog standard boring gay bloke. I'd have avoided some horrible experiences, I'd doubtless be different now - rather less fked up - as a result, but I'd basically just be me. Facing less surgery, but that's all. I'm sure you can appreciate how offensive a comparison with an animal is, in that context. We are people.

FlyingMeeces

9,932 posts

210 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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Nanook said:
Sorry, which word? EDIT sorry just realised. The dolphin/negro thing is a joke. If you're as sad as I am and watch that much South Park, you'd get it, if you're not, I can see how it would come across.

You should watch that episode though, you might just find it interesting.

I never said anyone decides to be transsexual.

But they do decide to refer to themselves as something other than the sex/gender they were born as. Please, don't misquote me.

Your very last sentence is opressive to furries. Why don't you recognise them? There have been legitimate studies carried out that have identified people who saw themselves as "other than human"

Are you the arbiter of who gets to call themselves what? That seems unfair?
How on earth do you know what gender anyone was born as?

You're derailing, and I'm done.

AllTorque

2,646 posts

268 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
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Digga said:

As for the unicorn, it's a bit crass, but at least it attempts to educate children with the idea that the previous pigeonholes were arbitrary.
Or the previous pigeon's hole!

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
You're nitpicking, and avoiding the question of why people should be tolerant and respectful of your gender, but not those of other people that you don't recognise. When I wrote sex/gender you know fine well what I meant.

Address the point please?
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.
I know they're words, they just don't form a meaningful sentence...

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
You're nitpicking, and avoiding the question of why people should be tolerant and respectful of your gender, but not those of other people that you don't recognise. When I wrote sex/gender you know fine well what I meant.

Address the point please?
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.
I know they're words, they just don't form a meaningful sentence...
QED

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
You're nitpicking, and avoiding the question of why people should be tolerant and respectful of your gender, but not those of other people that you don't recognise. When I wrote sex/gender you know fine well what I meant.

Address the point please?
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.
I know they're words, they just don't form a meaningful sentence...
QED
Yes, you've learned a new acronym, congratulations. It still doesn't change the fact that you've just typed some random words without actually stringing them together.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
You're nitpicking, and avoiding the question of why people should be tolerant and respectful of your gender, but not those of other people that you don't recognise. When I wrote sex/gender you know fine well what I meant.

Address the point please?
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.
I know they're words, they just don't form a meaningful sentence...
QED
Yes, you've learned a new acronym, congratulations. It still doesn't change the fact that you've just typed some random words without actually stringing them together.
carry on winston, if if the readersof pH needed any more proof of your bigotry and detachment and real life .

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Wednesday 24th August 2016
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
You're nitpicking, and avoiding the question of why people should be tolerant and respectful of your gender, but not those of other people that you don't recognise. When I wrote sex/gender you know fine well what I meant.

Address the point please?
and we are back to the insulting abusive use of slurs should be respected by those being abused becasue the abuser is 'normal' and the victim is a 'freak '.
I know they're words, they just don't form a meaningful sentence...
QED
Yes, you've learned a new acronym, congratulations. It still doesn't change the fact that you've just typed some random words without actually stringing them together.
carry on winston, if if the readersof pH needed any more proof of your bigotry and detachment and real life .
Slow down a little and proof read, you're not making any sense.

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