The Gender Unicorn

[WinstonWolf]

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

Are you being oppressed Stan?

when did you stop beating your wife ?

we can all play silly word games Winston , but it doesn;t change the fact that you are wrong and have demonstrated no insight into the topic beyond repeating your assertions.

That's because I'm correct.

:yawn: If a male gorilla acts like a female gorilla is he female? It really is a bit Pythonesque, he hasn't got a womb Stan...

[FlyingMeeces]

WinstonWolf said:

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

Are you being oppressed Stan?

when did you stop beating your wife ?

we can all play silly word games Winston , but it doesn;t change the fact that you are wrong and have demonstrated no insight into the topic beyond repeating your assertions.

That's because I'm correct.

:yawn: If a male gorilla acts like a female gorilla is he female? It really is a bit Pythonesque, he hasn't got a womb Stan...

So are women born without a uterus also not female? Or is that only some women born without a uterus, and you think you get to decide which ones?

[mph1977]

FlyingMeeces said:

So are women born without a uterus also not female? Or is that only some women born without a uterus, and you think you get to decide which ones?

exactly

This is where hte TERF promoted view of what a 'real girl' falls down ...

[WinstonWolf]

FlyingMeeces said:

WinstonWolf said:

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

Are you being oppressed Stan?

when did you stop beating your wife ?

we can all play silly word games Winston , but it doesn;t change the fact that you are wrong and have demonstrated no insight into the topic beyond repeating your assertions.

That's because I'm correct.

:yawn: If a male gorilla acts like a female gorilla is he female? It really is a bit Pythonesque, he hasn't got a womb Stan...

So are women born without a uterus also not female? Or is that only some women born without a uterus, and you think you get to decide which ones?

You do realise I'm parodying our resident SJW...

[Randy Winkman]

WinstonWolf said:

So let me get this straight, if a male gorilla behaves like a female gorilla and I don't accept that he's female that makes me bigoted?

It gets more like this every day,

We're just trying to say that gender is not the same thing as biological sex. Gender isnt about biology. And saying someone has female gender is not the same thing as saying they are female.

[Halb]

FlyingMeeces said:

But what are people who are XXY, or XYY, or have just a single working X chromosome (technically XO, Turner syndrome)? Or girls with androgen insensitivity syndromes and the like? (Girls who have X, Y chromosomes but on whose embryonic development androgens like testosterone had no effect, and who therefore have external genitalia typical of X, X baby girls; their condition is usually spotted about 14 years later when someone tries to figure out why they didn't start their period…)

Vehicles (or anything that's constructed) aren't a great analogy, but - what if you insisted that there exist ONLY bikes and SUVs and I had an MX5?

Or a sleeper with something ridiculous under the hood?

I doubt anyone is going to flame you because you're not in the slightest being unpleasant about anything.

I suspect maybe you'll one day have that 'getting it' moment like other posters have described - I did, actually, with trans people, shamefully late in my life, which is something I'll always regret - I would have a much psychologically safer life (eg spent less time suicidal) and be needing at least one fewer surgery if I'd had the language for it all pre-puberty… I made a new friend, during my first attempt at a degree, who then became a very close friend, and who then came out to me and very patiently explained it all. Lightbulb moment, big time.

Nice analogy. The binary thinking (culturally based) of many is what probably holds most back, the rest just like to be bigots/mean.
The 'why if it's not x, then it must surely be y' set of thinking, is that yet another hangover from Victoria?

[Fozziebear]

Can I just get this straight in my head?

Born with penis=male sex, brain says you are a woman=female gender?
Born with vagina=female sex, brain says you are a man=male gender?

So if male sex keeps male genitals but takes on female appearance they are still classed as a female for prison, toilets, medical etc? Does the male have to have full genital swap to become classed as a female?

I'm just curious about the whole thing, I have gay friends who would not swap their parts to become more fem/Dom for their partners, I'm guessing they just accept the working parts. It all looks like a downward spiral into a very confusing world and possibly the extinction of the human race? Extreme, but possible? Would we just have breeding couples? I'm really interested in it all and how society will evolve

[Halb]

Fozziebear said:

It all looks like a downward spiral into a very confusing world and possibly the extinction of the human race? Extreme, but possible? Would we just have breeding couples? I'm really interested in it all and how society will evolve

How would the extinction thing work?

[Fozziebear]

Halb said:

Fozziebear said:

It all looks like a downward spiral into a very confusing world and possibly the extinction of the human race? Extreme, but possible? Would we just have breeding couples? I'm really interested in it all and how society will evolve

How would the extinction thing work?

I may be thinking along the wrong lines, say the % of breeding units deminished over time due to genital changes? I'm guessing that the test tube child will become a bigger option? Laboratory made life?

[FlyingMeeces]

Fozziebear said:

Can I just get this straight in my head?

Born with penis=male sex, brain says you are a woman=female gender?
Born with vagina=female sex, brain says you are a man=male gender?

So if male sex keeps male genitals but takes on female appearance they are still classed as a female for prison, toilets, medical etc? Does the male have to have full genital swap to become classed as a female?

I'm just curious about the whole thing, I have gay friends who would not swap their parts to become more fem/Dom for their partners, I'm guessing they just accept the working parts. It all looks like a downward spiral into a very confusing world and possibly the extinction of the human race? Extreme, but possible? Would we just have breeding couples? I'm really interested in it all and how society will evolve

Yep Fozzie. And yes, trans women or trans men legally get treated as their presenting gender for the most part - there is a long and disgraceful history of transwomen being repeatedly raped in male prisons, but the hysteria over the hypothetical possibility of someone who still has a penis being in a women's prison sees them mostly stuck in solitary instead. Daft thing is, the medication (anti androgens) trans women take pretty much universally cause erectile dysfunction. You can't base it on surgery because not everyone can have surgery, and even those who can or want to will have a long wait. (The oldest trans woman treated by Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic was something like 75. Guessing she wasn't worried about her undercarriage so much as she was worried about finally getting free of a life-long mismatch between who she was and who everyone thought she was.) There's such a thing as a a Gender Recognition Certificate which is a proper blank slate in legal gender terms, but it's also astonishingly badly designed and totally unobtainable for many many trans women and men.

It's totally independent of sexuality - you get straight, gay and bi trans folk just like everyone else. What your gender is is totally separate from who you are attracted to is totally separate from which bits (flesh and blood or silicone) you have available to have sex with them with.

No downward spiral, there have always been trans people in all sorts of societies going back thousands and thousands of years, just like we've also had homosexual couples (and indeed those turn up in a lot of animal species too). There's a decent bit of evidence for non-reproducing members of communities improving the survival odds for those young which are born (this is true of humans, orcas and elephants, for starters…) so potentially as a sub-section of society we're actually helping prevent the extinction of the human race, if we're being melodramatic about it.

Gender dysphoria means that there aren't very many trans people who a) are physically able to or b) are emotionally/psychologically willing and able to participate in conventional baby making; a few will push themselves through before they realise they're trans or come out, in an effort to conform/ignore it and it'll go away (this often ends in self harm or suicide, people really shouldn't do this), some adopt, some lesbian trans women with cis female partners are able to save gametes from before they started treatment and then do the stereotypical turkey baster routine, most aren't or don't or can't.

[Fozziebear]

Cheers FM,

So I could dress like society states a man would dress, keep my beard, keep my gearbox and be a woman on all my paperwork?

[FlyingMeeces]

Fozziebear said:

Cheers FM,

So I could dress like society states a man would dress, keep my beard, keep my gearbox and be a woman on all my paperwork?

If you were a trans man, yeah, as the paperwork isn't done automatically - you get hench beardy gruff dudes who've been on T for 20 years but never bothered to do the gender recognition certificate nonsense.

But no, for transitioning trans people, the paperwork only gets done if they do actually transition (live as the 'new' gender). The paperwork comes afterwards.

[Halb]

Fozziebear said:

I may be thinking along the wrong lines, say the % of breeding units deminished over time due to genital changes? I'm guessing that the test tube child will become a bigger option? Laboratory made life?

I am not sure if anything percentage wise has changed really, or biological wise either. The only thing that has changed (I think) is the medical ability to help those who feel they are in the wrong body.

---

Anyhoo, saw this on fb today and it made me chuckle.

[Fozziebear]

FlyingMeeces said:

Fozziebear said:

Cheers FM,

So I could dress like society states a man would dress, keep my beard, keep my gearbox and be a woman on all my paperwork?

If you were a trans man, yeah, as the paperwork isn't done automatically - you get hench beardy gruff dudes who've been on T for 20 years but never bothered to do the gender recognition certificate nonsense.

But no, for transitioning trans people, the paperwork only gets done if they do actually transition (live as the 'new' gender). The paperwork comes afterwards.

Cheers,

Enlightening info, so you have to have the full med work to be considered a female/male on the legal paperwork. So it's a full commitment change rather than a trend statement that could and I'm guessing does happen

[FlyingMeeces]

Fozziebear said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Fozziebear said:

Cheers FM,

So I could dress like society states a man would dress, keep my beard, keep my gearbox and be a woman on all my paperwork?

If you were a trans man, yeah, as the paperwork isn't done automatically - you get hench beardy gruff dudes who've been on T for 20 years but never bothered to do the gender recognition certificate nonsense.

But no, for transitioning trans people, the paperwork only gets done if they do actually transition (live as the 'new' gender). The paperwork comes afterwards.

Cheers,

Enlightening info, so you have to have the full med work to be considered a female/male on the legal paperwork. So it's a full commitment change rather than a trend statement that could and I'm guessing does happen

Yup. For starters you get no medical help whatsoever until you have been living in the 'corrected' gender for a full year.

Trend statements tend to focus on things that are less likely to get a teenager raped and murdered, mind you. Although I guess young people lucky enough to feel really safe are more likely to explore a bit, as with (maybe) that poster's niece up thread somewhere.

Which I actually think is a bit much - it's bloody hard to hold down a job etc as a fully fledged adult with gender-appropriate name and correct pronouns if you're a 30 year old bloke who doesn't yet need to shave and whose voice hasn't yet broken. You can do a deed poll at any point, which lets you change your name, but not your listed sex on passport etc. But then you're liable to get nicked for travelling under false documents by all the places that treat trans folk badly. Bit of a nightmare.

[mph1977]

Nanook said:

mph1977 said:

flamed what what ?

admitting you don't understand it ? but not placing a moral value on how you are better because you are cisgender and heterosexual .

confusing physical sexual characteristics with Gender ?

you might get flamed for your sky fairy views on Marriage

So we should respect everyone's right to identify as whatever they like?

As long as it's not 'Christian'?

Ah that fallacy, There's a difference between respecting identity and forcing upon others , which is something that seems to be a blind spot for those who have caught religion ...

when was the last time 'teh gheys' came knocking on your door trying to convert you ? vs the JWs , LDS or any one of various other faiths who door knock or try and chug you in the street ...

[mizx]

That Izzard quote above is entirely valid, but it is still a womens' whatever or mens' whatever. They are designed for typical body shapes of either sex, in the sense a woman wearing trousers designed for 'men' is still wearing a pair of trousers designed for 'men'. Although the look/style is very much pinned to outward gender in our society, which as has been discussed is far more complicated.


I don't usually reply to these, FlyingMeeces and mph covered some of the things I would say. One thing I nearly posted about before; I don't doubt there are some who genuinely feel physiologically/phsycologically at different points on the scale of gender at times, but I struggle with how easily things like genderfluid seem to get thrown around these days, though I guess with the younger ones are still learning about themselves.

Wouldn't want to speak for anyone else, but I guess like some disabled people, myself included, trans people do not want special treatment and be thought of as inspiring etc. I can't imagine how tough it is sometimes, but I find them very inspiring for exactly that reason, just trying to be who they are.

I think we find it hard not to be prudish at times, in interests of that, lets just say I admit to look at a certain form of 'entertainment' as well as the societal male norm. I'm aware what gets leveled by some trans people who are outside all that, it is indeed wrong to seek out a relationship for 'those' reasons, but I don't beleive that should affect whatever you enjoy in the present. For me it just means I'm comfortable in my feelings that I don't give a st either way when it comes to appendages or lack thereof, I just know I'm simply attracted to 'female'. Not that I mean to say there is any kind of enlightenment (or should there be in terms of how we view physical sex vs gender?!?!) some things just aren't for everyone which is the spice of life.

Edited by mizx on Monday 22 August 13:21

[mph1977]

FlyingMeeces said:

Yup. For starters you get no medical help whatsoever until you have been living in the 'corrected' gender for a full year.

that is not entirely correct - in theory by the interim protocol facial hair removal for MtF could be NHS funded prior to going full time ( but presumes a currently unrepresentative timeframe between referral and first full GIC appt)

in the old days when it was just CX they took a strict 'year zero' approach - the GICs don;t know and will ante date the RLE to a dcoumentary proof of going full time ( name change / other documents change / change of name with work/ DWP that kind of thing)

the fact so many people are now living 'full time' before their first GIC appointment is due to the long waits due to a lack of suitable staffing at present

[FlyingMeeces]

mph1977 said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Yup. For starters you get no medical help whatsoever until you have been living in the 'corrected' gender for a full year.

that is not entirely correct - in theory by the interim protocol facial hair removal for MtF could be NHS funded prior to going full time ( but presumes a currently unrepresentative timeframe between referral and first full GIC appt)

in the old days when it was just CX they took a strict 'year zero' approach - the GICs don;t know and will ante date the RLE to a dcoumentary proof of going full time ( name change / other documents change / change of name with work/ DWP that kind of thing)

the fact so many people are now living 'full time' before their first GIC appointment is due to the long waits due to a lack of suitable staffing at present

It's 12+ months between referral and first appointment at CX, and GPs won't do/prescribe anything without the GIC's say-so, which they will not give until they've met the person, except very occasionally HRT if the person is currently self-medicating as obviously that's a safety risk.

[mph1977]

FlyingMeeces said:

It's 12+ months between referral and first appointment at CX, and GPs won't do/prescribe anything without the GIC's say-so, which they will not give until they've met the person, except very occasionally HRT if the person is currently self-medicating as obviously that's a safety risk.

there is no obligation to go full time at the point of referral ... but this is into the self politics of dysphoria etc ...