The Gender Unicorn

[FlyingMeeces]

mph1977 said:

FlyingMeeces said:

It's 12+ months between referral and first appointment at CX, and GPs won't do/prescribe anything without the GIC's say-so, which they will not give until they've met the person, except very occasionally HRT if the person is currently self-medicating as obviously that's a safety risk.

there is no obligation to go full time at the point of referral ... but this is into the self politics of dysphoria etc ...

There is not, and many don't, but if you want to minimise the wait time before you can get onto testosterone or oestrogen, you pretty much need to.

[FlyingMeeces]

Nanook said:

mph1977 said:

Ah that fallacy, There's a difference between respecting identity and forcing upon others , which is something that seems to be a blind spot for those who have caught religion ...

when was the last time 'teh gheys' came knocking on your door trying to convert you ? vs the JWs , LDS or any one of various other faiths who door knock or try and chug you in the street ...

I've been stopped more times in the last year by LBGT rights activists than religious people.

That's not really my point though, no-one here is trying to convert you to their religion. Yet you're taking a pop at it, whilst sticking up for the rights of bearded men to wear dresses and use the female toilets.

To me, everyone is pretty much free to do what they want, within reason. As long as it's not negatively impacting anyone else, crack on. If a woman wants to dress like a man and use the gents toilets, I really couldn't care. If someone wants to go to church on Sunday and pray, I really couldn't care.

But you're all for one, and making snide comments about the other, whilst calling other people bigoted. You don't see the hypocrisy?

Men, bearded or otherwise, have always had the right to wear dresses and indeed have exercised that right with enthusiasm. But please don't confuse those chaps with trans women, who are not men and are likely to be more careful not to have any noticeable facial hair than a great deal of non-trans ladies are.

Maybe let's not rerun the religion debate on here? Please? For the most part this has been a pretty decent thread, but if so let's let it die a natural death and not get the knackers in by way of suicide-by-mods.

[Fozziebear]

Nanook said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Men, bearded or otherwise, have always had the right to wear dresses and indeed have exercised that right with enthusiasm. But please don't confuse those chaps with trans women, who are not men and are likely to be more careful not to have any noticeable facial hair than a great deal of non-trans ladies are.

Maybe let's not rerun the religion debate on here? Please? For the most part this has been a pretty decent thread, but if so let's let it die a natural death and not get the knackers in by way of suicide-by-mods.

Now I'm confused again.

A man can put on a dress, and call himself a woman? And this makes him a trans woman?

Equally, a man can put on a dress, and call himself a woman, but you're telling me not to confuse them with the actual trans women, because he/she isn't one?

I have no interest in having the religion debate, you seem to have completely misunderstood the point.

FM has done a good job of explaining it to me, via my posted questions. I'm a bit of a caveman when it comes to the world and I understand it better now. The world is a strange place, and it's getting stranger, let's learn from this thread. Just for info I shall not be shaving and wearing a dress tonight

[mizx]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I assume he is refering to transvestites? they are not calling themselves women (at least not seriously and in public, I guess for some whom it is an erotic thing might).

[mizx]

Would a transvestite attempt to use womens loos? I don't imagine they would, but no idea to be honest.


In general there are clearly grey areas and only so much can be done about (re. toilets etc.), it only gets more complicated when you talk about a scale of gender, and then those who move on it! I can only go by my own measure of things. I know I'm attracted only to a 'female', expand that to mtf which I'm fully comfortable to do including whatever is downstairs, although whether one looks good enough that I would find attractive it does depend (fact of life, but as long any trans person is happy how they look then good for them); if you listen to an trans woman talk about anything, whatever their voice sounds like, I can't explain it but to me most are quite literally 'female' in how they are, just the same as any woman. An "aura" even if you will, if that makes sense?

Edited by mizx on Monday 22 August 19:13

[p1esk]

Fozziebear said:

Halb said:

Fozziebear said:

It all looks like a downward spiral into a very confusing world and possibly the extinction of the human race? Extreme, but possible? Would we just have breeding couples? I'm really interested in it all and how society will evolve

How would the extinction thing work?

I may be thinking along the wrong lines, say the % of breeding units deminished over time due to genital changes? I'm guessing that the test tube child will become a bigger option? Laboratory made life?

I don't know much about this subject, but I do not like the sound of that.

Obviously I'm in some difficulty here due to my limited understanding of the subject, but I do wonder where the human species is heading. Obviously the workings of nature evolve and change over time, but generally speaking this seems to take a very long time, and it seems to me that mankind is changing rather more rapidly than is generally the case.

Y'see, I started out with the idea that (once upon a time ) there were little boys and little girls, and in due course they became attracted to each other and formed partnerships that made use of their respective abilities. This seems like a lovely arrangement to me, and this is what I think of as NORMAL.

However, nature does not always work normally - sometimes it misfires and it then produces different results, and this is where I start to get into trouble with the subject.

Sorry, it's teatime: I may have to come back to this unless I'm laughed out of court in the meantime.

[Johnnytheboy]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

That's the tip of the iceberg, at this rate we will need about 58 changing rooms.

[Fozziebear]

Nanook said:

Johnnytheboy said:

Nanook said:

So how do we tell who is who? Which ones get to use the ladies changing rooms?

That's the tip of the iceberg, at this rate we will need about 58 changing rooms.

Would it be bigoted then, to suggest that the entire LBGT community needs to get their own house in order? I have no issue accommodating people that are different from what we consider the norm.

But what do they actually want?

Why not have female(straight), male(straight) and a LGBT changing/toilets? I'd like to keep it simple, if you have a penis it's the gents, a vagina it's the ladies, it's worked for years, but I'm guessing the powers that be will stick a spanner in the works and give us the mentioned 58 rooms .

[Randy Winkman]

I like Eddie Izzard and think he make's a good point on "women's" and "men's" clothes. But his situation is rather different from a person born physically male who feels he is a woman. That's person is probably going to want to identify with what the rest of us would regard as feminine, including "women's" clothes. It's just the same way I'm a "regular" male and chose to wear "men's" clothes. I would feel silly in "women's" clothes.

[Fozziebear]

Nanook said:

Fozziebear said:

Why not have female(straight), male(straight) and a LGBT changing/toilets? I'd like to keep it simple, if you have a penis it's the gents, a vagina it's the ladies, it's worked for years, but I'm guessing the powers that be will stick a spanner in the works and give us the mentioned 58 rooms .

Not all LBGT people are created equal?

Would they all be happy sharing one facility? Is it the same one the attack helicopters use? That could get messy...

Could you imagine 1 massive toilet/changing room for use by everyone no matter how they identify? I've seen it in a couple of clubs already when the line for the ladies is long .

[Einion Yrth]

Fozziebear said:

Nanook said:

Fozziebear said:

Why not have female(straight), male(straight) and a LGBT changing/toilets? I'd like to keep it simple, if you have a penis it's the gents, a vagina it's the ladies, it's worked for years, but I'm guessing the powers that be will stick a spanner in the works and give us the mentioned 58 rooms .

Not all LBGT people are created equal?

Would they all be happy sharing one facility? Is it the same one the attack helicopters use? That could get messy...

Could you imagine 1 massive toilet/changing room for use by everyone no matter how they identify? I've seen it in a couple of clubs already when the line for the ladies is long .

Indeed. Cubicles for the embarrassed, everyone else just gets on with it.

[230TE]

Einion Yrth said:

Indeed. Cubicles for the embarrassed, everyone else just gets on with it.

Unisex open plan changing rooms? No thanks. I don't want to be waving my chopper around in front of the ladies. Apart from anything else, they'd all laugh.

Probably the most practical answer is unisex toilets / changing rooms with individual cubicles for everyone, no shared spaces such as urinals or washing facilities. Then everyone can be as private as they like and gender issues don't arise. Problems are cost and capacity (your gym changing rooms are going to end up bigger than the gym, and the fees will go up), but people said the same thing about provision for the disabled.

Cue howls of outrage from the cottaging and voyeurist communities...

[Fozziebear]

230TE said:

Einion Yrth said:

Indeed. Cubicles for the embarrassed, everyone else just gets on with it.

Unisex open plan changing rooms? No thanks. I don't want to be waving my chopper around in front of the ladies. Apart from anything else, they'd all laugh.

Probably the most practical answer is unisex toilets / changing rooms with individual cubicles for everyone, no shared spaces such as urinals or washing facilities. Then everyone can be as private as they like and gender issues don't arise. Problems are cost and capacity (your gym changing rooms are going to end up bigger than the gym, and the fees will go up), but people said the same thing about provision for the disabled.

Cue howls of outrage from the cottaging and voyeurist communities...

Sounds like most swimming pools with open area with cubicles etc

[FlyingMeeces]

Nanook said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Men, bearded or otherwise, have always had the right to wear dresses and indeed have exercised that right with enthusiasm. But please don't confuse those chaps with trans women, who are not men and are likely to be more careful not to have any noticeable facial hair than a great deal of non-trans ladies are.

Maybe let's not rerun the religion debate on here? Please? For the most part this has been a pretty decent thread, but if so let's let it die a natural death and not get the knackers in by way of suicide-by-mods.

Now I'm confused again.

A man can put on a dress, and call himself a woman? And this makes him a trans woman?

Equally, a man can put on a dress, and call himself a woman, but you're telling me not to confuse them with the actual trans women, because he/she isn't one?

I have no interest in having the religion debate, you seem to have completely misunderstood the point.

I'm equally not interested in the religion thing so let's leave that bit, cheers - I was literally only wanting to avoid you guys reenacting the usual and you're not so we're sorted.

Gender is in someone's head, so what clothes they wear don't make a load of difference really - setting aside for a moment "part-timers" like transvestites, who may fall under the broader umbrella of 'transgender' (not conforming to the gender norm associated with their sex) but are definitely not 'transsexual', the point is that a trans woman is never just going to be putting on a dress, transition is a life-changing, damn near irreversible even just socially, no takey-backsies change in how you declare yourself to the world. A trans woman isn't someone that used to be a man, she's someone who used to look like one (or just a boy, if she was an early transitioner and had the good fortune to avoid the 'wrong' puberty). The dress is the least of it.

If you decided you'd like to wear a nice summer frock tomorrow, good luck to you, but it wouldn't rewrite your gender, which I'm assuming is male - you'd still be you, and I think from what you said that you're not trans. If you realised you needed to set in motion that massive snowballing set of changes as a result then… well, that might be a process of coming to understand things about your gender you hadn't realised before.

The short version of what I'm getting at is that that hypothetical trans women, even on day 1 of it all (and unless she's your best mate or your sister or something, you'll probably never see someone right at the start of her transition because being out in public at that point is horrifically vulnerable and leaves them as a target for a hell of a lot of abuse) isn't a man in a dress. She's a woman.

[FlyingMeeces]

mizx said:

Would a transvestite attempt to use womens loos? I don't imagine they would, but no idea to be honest.

Edited by mizx on Monday 22 August 19:13

Not normally, no - maybe in a very, very safe space eg the one bar in Canal St (Manchester) which is the semi-official home base for not just transsexual but all the different sub-sectors of the transgender umbrella - pretty sure they still hold drag nights etc.

Trans people (of any 'variety') who do not 'pass' - eg who are visibly trans - will do just about anything to avoid using a public loo, though - a friend jokes about having a "bladder of steel" but you do bl**dy well hold on if the alternative is being verbally attacked or worse when you try to go for a pee.

There's a Caffe Nero in the local shopping centre where the bogs are just four unisex separate toilets off a corridor, proper walls, proper doors, not cubicles - until the general public stop behaving so disgracefully towards trans folk, either official unisex 'everybody' loos or proper separated ones like that will be the only option for some to feel safe.

Separate 'LGBT' toilet would be ridiculous - men and women who want to use the ladies or gents, gay, straight, trans or whatever should be able to do so without limits - but a unisex option available for parents with kids, disabled people whose assistants are a different gender to themselves, and anyone else who doesn't feel comfortable using a gendered toilet, would be great where space permits. The main thing that would improve things would be if people just stopped policing others choices - report it if someone's acting like a creep, regardless of what gender they are, and let everyone who just wants to pee in peace get on with it!

[FlyingMeeces]

230TE said:

Einion Yrth said:

Indeed. Cubicles for the embarrassed, everyone else just gets on with it.

Unisex open plan changing rooms? No thanks. I don't want to be waving my chopper around in front of the ladies. Apart from anything else, they'd all laugh.

Probably the most practical answer is unisex toilets / changing rooms with individual cubicles for everyone, no shared spaces such as urinals or washing facilities. Then everyone can be as private as they like and gender issues don't arise. Problems are cost and capacity (your gym changing rooms are going to end up bigger than the gym, and the fees will go up), but people said the same thing about provision for the disabled.

Cue howls of outrage from the cottaging and voyeurist communities...

The cottaging lot needed to find new accommodation with the downfall of the local authority public loo, and have mostly moved online - you don't need to hang around looking for 'company' when you can do it in greater warmth and safety via tindr etc! Sign of the times I s'pose.

[mph1977]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

and your story about how judgemental you are over 'passing' is meant to prove or substaniate what exactly?

Edited by mph1977 on Tuesday 23 August 14:41

[FlyingMeeces]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

She's a newbie. It's hard if you have to be out and about on pretty much day 1, she hasn't had the time to get the hang of it all yet, and your perception is doubtless not helped by the fact that you know what she looked like before. But she will get the hang of it, and the fact that she's in her first days doesn't change that she is who she is, and she is a woman. There are doubtless cis women who don't look very feminine in unflattering clothing either (understatement of the century) - neither cis nor trans women have 'convincing' as a priority, generally, although of course it can be a safety issue in areas where people feel so justified in their transphobia that there's a risk of assault (that's almost everywhere).

Hopefully she'll find the numerous collections of helpful advice from trans peers sooner or later, there's plenty there if you think to look. Benefits for the Internet age.

My best friend is a trans woman. We'd been friends for months before she came out to me and I was genuinely astonished when she did. You've probably met and dealt with a good few trans men and women without realising.

Case in point, the first out guy to represent the USA in international competition, Chris Mosier: https://youtu.be/_gq8PO9XK2Y - suffice it to say, that's not a woman, but I bet anyone around him the day he finally went "please use male pronouns now", the first time he went in the gents, went "yeah mate you're not fooling anyone", hopefully just to themselves, maybe out loud if he was unlucky - it happens. There's a lot of ground to cover between the start and end of the process of transitioning.

[Digga]

Fozziebear said:

Could you imagine 1 massive toilet/changing room for use by everyone no matter how they identify? I've seen it in a couple of clubs already when the line for the ladies is long .

Try using a sauna in Germany or Austria.

It's bad enough seeing other hotel guests naked, but then seeing them shortly afterwards, as you make your way to your dinner table is, well not my idea of relaxation.

[ehonda]

I honestly don't care how someone refers to themselves or how they refer to me, the thing that I don't understand is that it seems to me that people who define themselves outside of hetero/cis etc seem to be aiming for more pigeon holes. To my mind more pigeon holes = more exclusion and I can't see how that is in any way progressive or positive.
What's wrong with Person, surely that should be the goal?