The Gender Unicorn
Discussion
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
A man is an adult male.
The very first definition I found on the internet of male is that 'a male organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm'
So, your mate might be 'manly', but are they a man?
ah the 'gender critical' definition ... the one that excludes a proprtion of cisgender people of either sex due to the faulty assumptions made...The very first definition I found on the internet of male is that 'a male organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm'
So, your mate might be 'manly', but are they a man?
as many people would call you 'abnormal' despite your constant assertions of normality
FlyingMeeces said:
Okay, basics first.
L, B and G stand for lesbian, gay and bisexual. They are terms which describe the gender of the person's preferred partner, in the context of their own gender. None of those are 'shifting' categories, and the people who fit into them number in the high hundreds of millions.
I thought I was starting to understand this, but now I'm confused again, as I understood the LGB thing to be based on sex rather than gender (having finally grasped the distinction between the two). Hence the bitter (and entertaining) war of words being fought between some of the nuttier LGB activists, TQ activists and radical feminists over which group is the most oppressed.L, B and G stand for lesbian, gay and bisexual. They are terms which describe the gender of the person's preferred partner, in the context of their own gender. None of those are 'shifting' categories, and the people who fit into them number in the high hundreds of millions.
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
Nanook said:
A man is an adult male.
The very first definition I found on the internet of male is that 'a male organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm'
So, your mate might be 'manly', but are they a man?
ah the 'gender critical' definition ... the one that excludes a proprtion of cisgender people of either sex due to the faulty assumptions made...The very first definition I found on the internet of male is that 'a male organism is the physiological sex that produces sperm'
So, your mate might be 'manly', but are they a man?
as many people would call you 'abnormal' despite your constant assertions of normality
What has communism got to do with the fact that if you're born with a penis, you're a man? (Unless one of the very, very rare cases where something odd happened in the womb involving enzyme deficiencies and subsequent chromosome and/or hormonal imbalances).
I'm aware of conversion therapy in homosexuality, but I'm not sure how that relates to me questioning the current consensus on gender fluidity.
I have no idea what TERF is, filed in same place as "white cisgender" for now.
Now for my religious, Communist, TERF, white privileged cisgender studies.
In one, over half of the self declared trans folk were found to be suffering from a psychiatric illness which was causing their gender Dysphoria.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ap...
When the Guardian was an astute and respected publication and before the SJW takeover, they paid for a medical review of over 100 studies worldwide and said "There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation"
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/he...
And I can't find it now as I'm busy, but one admittedly small study found 90% of post op patients exhibited psychiatric illnesses such as extreme anxiety, suicidal thoughts,etc. I'll try link it later.
I'm aware of conversion therapy in homosexuality, but I'm not sure how that relates to me questioning the current consensus on gender fluidity.
I have no idea what TERF is, filed in same place as "white cisgender" for now.
Now for my religious, Communist, TERF, white privileged cisgender studies.
In one, over half of the self declared trans folk were found to be suffering from a psychiatric illness which was causing their gender Dysphoria.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ap...
When the Guardian was an astute and respected publication and before the SJW takeover, they paid for a medical review of over 100 studies worldwide and said "There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation"
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/he...
And I can't find it now as I'm busy, but one admittedly small study found 90% of post op patients exhibited psychiatric illnesses such as extreme anxiety, suicidal thoughts,etc. I'll try link it later.
230TE said:
FlyingMeeces said:
Okay, basics first.
L, B and G stand for lesbian, gay and bisexual. They are terms which describe the gender of the person's preferred partner, in the context of their own gender. None of those are 'shifting' categories, and the people who fit into them number in the high hundreds of millions.
I thought I was starting to understand this, but now I'm confused again, as I understood the LGB thing to be based on sex rather than gender (having finally grasped the distinction between the two). Hence the bitter (and entertaining) war of words being fought between some of the nuttier LGB activists, TQ activists and radical feminists over which group is the most oppressed.L, B and G stand for lesbian, gay and bisexual. They are terms which describe the gender of the person's preferred partner, in the context of their own gender. None of those are 'shifting' categories, and the people who fit into them number in the high hundreds of millions.
Sex = the configuration of bits you were born with
Gender = your view of yourself in relation to male / female
Sexuality = who you fancy
Nanook said:
mph1977 said:
LGB is Sexuality
Sex = the configuration of bits you were born with
Gender = your view of yourself in relation to male / female
Sexuality = who you fancy
So if you were born male, have a penis, but identify as a woman, and fancy women, are you a lesbian?Sex = the configuration of bits you were born with
Gender = your view of yourself in relation to male / female
Sexuality = who you fancy
I've seen video's of lesbians on the internet. There are usually no penises.
Yon internet videos do not in fact accurately reflect the lives of cis lesbians either, to be fair.
12 years is a long time in research terms. Charing Cross (the UK's biggest and oldest gender identity clinic) has some more up-to-date stuff, they had it all out as a PowerPoint presentation the last time I was there - I've just been rooting around online hoping to provide a link, but didn't find one.
The general gist was that they are satisfied beyond doubt that hormone therapies and surgery help people significantly in the realms of both straightforward mental and emotional wellbeing, but also in terms of 'economic activity'.
Bit narked I couldn't find it actually.
The general gist was that they are satisfied beyond doubt that hormone therapies and surgery help people significantly in the realms of both straightforward mental and emotional wellbeing, but also in terms of 'economic activity'.
Bit narked I couldn't find it actually.
Halb said:
I'm seeing a mate this weekend, he has done that change. Just had another surgery, and is on drugs, steroids I guess. He's more manly than most blokes I know (probably than most on here.) 
One of my lesbian friends is a former US Marine, embassy staff and did security contracting in Iraq with me. She's gone from some muscle and feminine to very butch and built like a beast, she's a fire fighter and mum, got married to her partner last year, she still refers to herself as female and would even dream of being refurbed. Fozziebear said:
Halb said:
I'm seeing a mate this weekend, he has done that change. Just had another surgery, and is on drugs, steroids I guess. He's more manly than most blokes I know (probably than most on here.)
One of my lesbian friends is a former US Marine, embassy staff and did security contracting in Iraq with me. She's gone from some muscle and feminine to very butch and built like a beast, she's a fire fighter and mum, got married to her partner last year, she still refers to herself as female and would even dream of being refurbed. FlyingMeeces said:
12 years is a long time in research terms. Charing Cross (the UK's biggest and oldest gender identity clinic) has some more up-to-date stuff, they had it all out as a PowerPoint presentation the last time I was there - I've just been rooting around online hoping to provide a link, but didn't find one.
The general gist was that they are satisfied beyond doubt that hormone therapies and surgery help people significantly in the realms of both straightforward mental and emotional wellbeing, but also in terms of 'economic activity'.
Bit narked I couldn't find it actually.
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.The general gist was that they are satisfied beyond doubt that hormone therapies and surgery help people significantly in the realms of both straightforward mental and emotional wellbeing, but also in terms of 'economic activity'.
Bit narked I couldn't find it actually.
I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.
I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
provide some proper evidence for your assertions , as all you are doing at present is spouting utter effluent without an evidence base and seemingly no actual knowledge or understanding of the Pathway ... I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.
I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
provide some proper evidence for your assertions , as all you are doing at present is spouting utter effluent without an evidence base and seemingly no actual knowledge or understanding of the Pathway ... I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.
I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
You are correct that not everyone questioning their gender is a prime candidate for therapy and surgery: that's why they make us see so many bloody shrinks along the way! People who are not a good candidate, don't get it. Charing Cross and presumably the other GICs are more than happy to see someone a few times, counsel them about their issues and send them on their way without bodily changes; lifelong oestrogen or testosterone therapy is expensive, surgery is really expensive, the expense is justified for the people it helps but they certainly don't want to do it where it won't help. I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
There are actually a TINY number of trans regretters. They're just often very high profile, because the gutter press absolutely loves that s
t and so do TERFs, who say things like that trans men are 'mutilated women' and trans women are apparently raping 'real' women literally just by existing. So there's an awful lot more press on them than on boring old Jane, Frank, Oliver and Karen quietly getting on with their lives, success stories don't make good TV. I knew a 'trans regretter' once: they (I'm not being gratuitously PC here, I genuinely don't know which pronouns are correct now) were not going to be referred for surgery due to their instability and unmanaged mental health issues, so they took out a loan and went private. I think they've now de- and re-transitioned at least 3 or 4 times but I've now lost touch with them. It's a sort of elaborate self harm and it's very, very sad and NHS gender identity clinics - and the private guys if they have any ethics at all - are absolutely desperate not to have that happen and so are extraordinarily careful about who gets anything that can't easily be reversed. I wish them all the best, they are clearly in desperate need of some serious help. But they are also so, so, so rare, seriously.
Art0ir said:
mph1977 said:
Art0ir said:
I'll try find it myself, and thanks for sharing.
I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
provide some proper evidence for your assertions , as all you are doing at present is spouting utter effluent without an evidence base and seemingly no actual knowledge or understanding of the Pathway ... I'm just not fully bought into the idea that every person that questions their gender is a prime candidate for the therapy and surgery. There are many, many documented cases of people not adapting well to their new lifestyles and being very open about their regret.
That doesn't make me anti trans, I'm sure many people love the change and feel much better off with their new identities. The problem is it's another cause that's been hijacked by new wave feminists like MPH and distorted.
FlyingMeeces said:
You are correct that not everyone questioning their gender is a prime candidate for therapy and surgery: that's why they make us see so many bloody shrinks along the way! People who are not a good candidate, don't get it. Charing Cross and presumably the other GICs are more than happy to see someone a few times, counsel them about their issues and send them on their way without bodily changes; lifelong oestrogen or testosterone therapy is expensive, surgery is really expensive, the expense is justified for the people it helps but they certainly don't want to do it where it won't help.
There are actually a TINY number of trans regretters. They're just often very high profile, because the gutter press absolutely loves that st and so do TERFs, who say things like that trans men are 'mutilated women' and trans women are apparently raping 'real' women literally just by existing. So there's an awful lot more press on them than on boring old Jane, Frank, Oliver and Karen quietly getting on with their lives, success stories don't make good TV.
I knew a 'trans regretter' once: they (I'm not being gratuitously PC here, I genuinely don't know which pronouns are correct now) were not going to be referred for surgery due to their instability and unmanaged mental health issues, so they took out a loan and went private. I think they've now de- and re-transitioned at least 3 or 4 times but I've now lost touch with them. It's a sort of elaborate self harm and it's very, very sad and NHS gender identity clinics - and the private guys if they have any ethics at all - are absolutely desperate not to have that happen and so are extraordinarily careful about who gets anything that can't easily be reversed. I wish them all the best, they are clearly in desperate need of some serious help. But they are also so, so, so rare, seriously.
I'm glad to hear that at least in your experience the barrier to lifechanging surgery is substantial. I was under the impression that prospective patients could effectively shop around to find someone that approve them, even within the NHS.There are actually a TINY number of trans regretters. They're just often very high profile, because the gutter press absolutely loves that s
t and so do TERFs, who say things like that trans men are 'mutilated women' and trans women are apparently raping 'real' women literally just by existing. So there's an awful lot more press on them than on boring old Jane, Frank, Oliver and Karen quietly getting on with their lives, success stories don't make good TV. I knew a 'trans regretter' once: they (I'm not being gratuitously PC here, I genuinely don't know which pronouns are correct now) were not going to be referred for surgery due to their instability and unmanaged mental health issues, so they took out a loan and went private. I think they've now de- and re-transitioned at least 3 or 4 times but I've now lost touch with them. It's a sort of elaborate self harm and it's very, very sad and NHS gender identity clinics - and the private guys if they have any ethics at all - are absolutely desperate not to have that happen and so are extraordinarily careful about who gets anything that can't easily be reversed. I wish them all the best, they are clearly in desperate need of some serious help. But they are also so, so, so rare, seriously.
Are there any other published studies I missed that show the figures regarding post op regret?
I've read a little bit of Christina Hoff Sommers' work, someone I would associate with positive feminism, and she has stated on multiple occasions that any scholar that wishes to seriously study any of the issues that new wave feminists have leached onto and does not produce results that fit the narrative are censured, derided and in some cases fail to get their tenure. It all links to a very weird situation, particularly on American campuses, where the SJW folk are shutting down any real debate or discussion on issues like this and doing great harm by trivialising very real things like rape and racism.
. 
FlyingMeeces said:
The drugs he's on will just be testosterone, maybe with norethisterone (an artificial form of progesterone) to stop the uterus from trying to still do uterus things if he has one. Roll on the invention of functioning testosterone implants, currently it's either a gel to apply to skin daily that gets everywhere, or a mahoosive jab in the backside once a month. I'm a coward. 
I'm wondering if I know him - it's not like we literally all know each other but it is a fairly small world, there are only a handful of places to get referred for the healthcare side of things, and various organisations/support group type stuff brings people together a bit, especially within age groups. And I know two very blokey dudes who live in South Manchester and have recently had surgery.
If you're a Terry Pratchett fan, maybe. I'm wondering if I know him - it's not like we literally all know each other but it is a fairly small world, there are only a handful of places to get referred for the healthcare side of things, and various organisations/support group type stuff brings people together a bit, especially within age groups. And I know two very blokey dudes who live in South Manchester and have recently had surgery.
I would have guessed at test. It makes sense, for him a few years back to keep asking me about steroids, back before things changed. (ppl normally assume I'm juicing).
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