WW2 what if hitler went East?

[valiant]

Hitler was always going to go west first as he had 'unfinished' business with the French. Reperations to the French had virtually bankrupted Germany and he felt betrayed that the leadership at had time had surrendered. He was desperate to atone that humiliation and prove to the world Germany's domination.

He should have conquered all of Western Europe first though, IMO, inc Blighty. Had he done this, he would have denied the Americans a base to fight from. (We were called the largest aircraft carrier anchored of Europe ). Once conquered and puppet governments installed, he would only be fighting on a single front and have more troops to do it.

If Hitler could have persuaded the Japanese to fight the Russians from the East in force rather than the US, it would probably be curtains for Stalin probably after a few years of bloody fighting.

Had the above happened, I don't think the US would go looking for a fight, they would find an accommodation with the new world order.

[glazbagun]

battered said:

Stalin would have starved them out just the same, with even more horrifying Soviet losses. Stalingrad would have been the least of it. Hello, we've cut your supply lines. You have 2 million bullets, you say? Well, we have 2.5 million men that we can get on trains, let's see who runs out first.

It worked on Napoleon too, the willingness of the Russian authorities to retreat leaving only smoking ruins behind them never ceases to amaze me.

Hitler had actually studied Napoleons invasion of Russia and had made several improvements to his invasion. I just can't remember what they were!

I also agree that if he'd stuck in Stalins good books it would have been to his benefit. What did the Japanese actually do for the Nazi's? Gave the Brits an almighty headache I guess.

[Jimbeaux]

glazbagun said:

What did the Japanese actually do for the Nazi's? Gave the Brits an almighty headache I guess.

They kept a whole other US Army-Navy engaged in the Pacific.

[Jimbeaux]

jmorgan said:

Newc said:

Wacky Racer said:

Even if they had beaten Russia, America would have turned Germany to dust by 1947 as they had the atom bomb, and could have produced loads by then.

Yeah, but why would they ? US was very reluctant to enter the European war. Germany invading Russia only wouldn't have swung it.

They did see Germany as the real threat and agreed on Germany first in the campaign when h man made the biggest mistake of the many he made, declaring war on the us when he did not have to. The us agrred deal with Japan later, as it turned out the us was a massive production country that could cope.

And the bomb was a collaboration, read that Churchill realised that we did not have the loot and gave them the Crown Jewels in bomb stuff to crack on with it.

At least from my understanding?

IIRC, the British Intel service swiped some heavy water experiments from the Nazis and gave the US time to do the bomb first, or something along those lines. I believe it involved a spymaster that was Ian Fleming's boss. "A man called Intrepid" was a book along those lines.

[MarkRSi]

slipstream 1985 said:

What would have happened if hitler had gone East into Russia first instead of france say even with Japan attacking from the other side? How would the war have trned out?

You've got a Chronosphere haven't you?

[glazbagun]

Jimbeaux said:

glazbagun said:

What did the Japanese actually do for the Nazi's? Gave the Brits an almighty headache I guess.

They kept a whole other US Army-Navy engaged in the Pacific.

After they (officially anyway) brought America into the war in the first place. With friends like that...

[Jimbeaux]

glazbagun said:

Jimbeaux said:

glazbagun said:

What did the Japanese actually do for the Nazi's? Gave the Brits an almighty headache I guess.

They kept a whole other US Army-Navy engaged in the Pacific.

After they (officially anyway) brought America into the war in the first place. With friends like that...

Indeed.

[Joey Ramone]

He went west first because he couldn't contemplate attacking the Soviet Union with Britain and France simultaneously poised to assault his western border, Simple as that.

[s2art]

valiant said:

He should have conquered all of Western Europe first though, IMO, inc Blighty.

How? The Germans had no plausible way to invade the UK. At the time of BoB we were outproducing Germany in many areas, including aircraft.

[vonuber]

MarkRSi said:

You've got a Chronosphere haven't you?

Congratulations professor, with Hitler out of the way...

[williamp]

Newc said:

It would have worked out much better for him. He could have avoided Poland - he'd already got effective control of Czechoslovakia and Austria, so continue going that way. Take Romania - lots of oil assets - and take or neutralise Hungary. No treaties triggered, no reaction from France or UK who were both under pacifist administrations at the time.

And then Ukraine. Remember that a great number of Ukrainians saw the Germans as their liberators from the Russians. A joint military pact (to start with, anyway; can always come back later and start throwing your weight around), and it's off to Moscow in the summer of 1940. Partition Russia roughly North-South at Kazan, and you now have Poland effectively surrounded anyway without needing to invade.

Essentially a land-air campaign only, so budget can be diverted from the Navy and tank and infantry weapons development gets speeded up. No response at all from the West Europe powers because there's no way to get any popular mandate to respond to a liberation of Russia by Ukraine, which is how it would have been spun by Goebbels.

I doubt he would have avoided Poland for long: what started out as a military campaign to bring back in parts of Germany lost after WW1 soon turned into an anti-Jew war, so Poland would have been high on his list of secondary targets. I can imagine him invading him after invading Russia, so we wpuld have got invovled against him anyhow.

[Derek Smith]

I love what ifs, even as a kid. I was thinking about a lot of what ifs with Janet Board when I was a teenager. They were fun.

But the thing is that if you introduce one variable, then every other action, or inaction of course, becomes undependable as new motivations are brought in. I mean if Alan Brewer hadn't got himself nicked at a demonstration and started to appear cool, well, who could say. What if eh?

If the Germans had not moved west then peace in our time might have got a lot of backing and the massive rearmament might not have gone ahead, or have been slowed. Etc.

Public opinion in the USA was quite pro Germany and the odds against them joining the war were short. They would probably continued to sell us arms once the convoys were attacked, but would probably have done the same to Germany as well.

The war was a close run thing right up until Russia started arming on such a massive scale.

[Tango13]

Jimbeaux said:

IIRC, the British Intel service swiped some heavy water experiments from the Nazis and gave the US time to do the bomb first, or something along those lines. I believe it involved a spymaster that was Ian Fleming's boss. "A man called Intrepid" was a book along those lines.

The British sent Commandos to destroy the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant which produed 'heavy water' which is used as a moderator in certain types of nuclear reactor.

The Germans never got behind building an atomic bomb, it was to a certain extent considered it to be a 'Jewish Science' and not worthy of their attentions. There's also controversy about whether the German sceintists at the time knew how to build an atomic bomb but lied to Hitler about the feasibility of construction.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00E2RG5GA/ref=dp-kind...

This is the book to read, it covers everything in exhausting detail.

[Jimbeaux]

Tango13 said:

Jimbeaux said:

IIRC, the British Intel service swiped some heavy water experiments from the Nazis and gave the US time to do the bomb first, or something along those lines. I believe it involved a spymaster that was Ian Fleming's boss. "A man called Intrepid" was a book along those lines.

The British sent Commandos to destroy the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant which produed 'heavy water' which is used as a moderator in certain types of nuclear reactor.

The Germans never got behind building an atomic bomb, it was to a certain extent considered it to be a 'Jewish Science' and not worthy of their attentions. There's also controversy about whether the German sceintists at the time knew how to build an atomic bomb but lied to Hitler about the feasibility of construction.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00E2RG5GA/ref=dp-kind...

This is the book to read, it covers everything in exhausting detail.

Thank lot for that Tango! I have long been interested in this subject but find usually fragmented and conflicting information.

[s2art]

Jimbeaux said:

Tango13 said:

Jimbeaux said:

IIRC, the British Intel service swiped some heavy water experiments from the Nazis and gave the US time to do the bomb first, or something along those lines. I believe it involved a spymaster that was Ian Fleming's boss. "A man called Intrepid" was a book along those lines.

The British sent Commandos to destroy the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant which produed 'heavy water' which is used as a moderator in certain types of nuclear reactor.

The Germans never got behind building an atomic bomb, it was to a certain extent considered it to be a 'Jewish Science' and not worthy of their attentions. There's also controversy about whether the German sceintists at the time knew how to build an atomic bomb but lied to Hitler about the feasibility of construction.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00E2RG5GA/ref=dp-kind...

This is the book to read, it covers everything in exhausting detail.

Thank lot for that Tango! I have long been interested in this subject but find usually fragmented and conflicting information.

IIRC Heisenberg got his sums wrong, and thought the critical mass would be several tons. They wouldnt have beaten the allies to the bomb anyway.

[Tango13]

s2art said:

IIRC Heisenberg got his sums wrong, and thought the critical mass would be several tons. They wouldnt have beaten the allies to the bomb anyway.

On both points

As you rightly say, Heisenberg originally claimed the critical mass was several tons but after hearing of the bombs being dropped on Japan he later claimed he knew it was only a few pounds but lied to prevent Hitler ordering the construction of a bomb.

It was something to do with the amount of Neutrons generated in the fission process, IIRC he claimed to have 'ignored' the second Neutron generated when an atom of U235 was split?

The vast amounts of money and other resources the American poured into the Manhattan project dwarfed anything the Germans could begin to imagine.

[Jimbeaux]

s2art said:

Jimbeaux said:

Tango13 said:

Jimbeaux said:

IIRC, the British Intel service swiped some heavy water experiments from the Nazis and gave the US time to do the bomb first, or something along those lines. I believe it involved a spymaster that was Ian Fleming's boss. "A man called Intrepid" was a book along those lines.

The British sent Commandos to destroy the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant which produed 'heavy water' which is used as a moderator in certain types of nuclear reactor.

The Germans never got behind building an atomic bomb, it was to a certain extent considered it to be a 'Jewish Science' and not worthy of their attentions. There's also controversy about whether the German sceintists at the time knew how to build an atomic bomb but lied to Hitler about the feasibility of construction.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00E2RG5GA/ref=dp-kind...

This is the book to read, it covers everything in exhausting detail.

Thank lot for that Tango! I have long been interested in this subject but find usually fragmented and conflicting information.

IIRC Heisenberg got his sums wrong, and thought the critical mass would be several tons. They wouldnt have beaten the allies to the bomb anyway.

That is what I understand. Espionage in WWII is facinating all around imo. There are still stories and events surfacing to this day. So much of the outcome is to the credit of a small few we never heard of and may never hear of.

[V8 Fettler]

s2art said:

valiant said:

He should have conquered all of Western Europe first though, IMO, inc Blighty.

How? The Germans had no plausible way to invade the UK. At the time of BoB we were outproducing Germany in many areas, including aircraft.

The Germans didn't need to invade the UK to win. The German U-boats could have starved the British into the defeat 1940 - 1941 when the RN couldn't sink the U-boats quickly enough (there was a period of approximately three months when the RN didn't sink any U-boats) and the U-boats were sinking merchant ships quicker than the British could replace them.

[jmorgan]

V8 Fettler said:

s2art said:

valiant said:

He should have conquered all of Western Europe first though, IMO, inc Blighty.

How? The Germans had no plausible way to invade the UK. At the time of BoB we were outproducing Germany in many areas, including aircraft.

The Germans didn't need to invade the UK to win. The German U-boats could have starved the British into the defeat 1940 - 1941 when the RN couldn't sink the U-boats quickly enough (there was a period of approximately three months when the RN didn't sink any U-boats) and the U-boats were sinking merchant ships quicker than the British could replace them.

They didn't have enough and the H man did not do sea warfare, strange stuff, boats float in it and that was about it. If he had listened to a few experts then a killer blow could have been dealt with more U boats at the start, they did not build enough or should have waited a few years to get the numbers up. At least as I understand it.

But all that would have done was force the UK to the table, there were still strong sentiments that we should had signed on the dotted line for peace.

[JagLover]

Joey Ramone said:

He went west first because he couldn't contemplate attacking the Soviet Union with Britain and France simultaneously poised to assault his western border, Simple as that.

We have a winner on page 2.

The west had already declared war on him after he went East by attacking Poland. So attacking the Soviet Union, rather than France, in the summer of 1940 would have meant leaving the western allies free to attack him in the west and by necessity would have meant splitting his forces.

and a glance at a map of the region in 1939 would show he would have had great difficulties attacking the Soviet Union rather than Poland as they didn't actually have a land border at the time (the baltic states being annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940)

There are many fascinating what ifs of WW2 but this is only one of them if the Germans had gone completely crazy.

The more interesting what if is what if Germany had attacked earlier in 1941. But there were massive logistical difficulties even getting ready for a late June start.

If anyone is interested in the problems Germany started to run into by the very start of the campaign "War without Garlands" on the first six months on the eastern front is a very good read. Many historians believe that the war in the east had already been lost by the time of the Russian Counter-offensive before Moscow, which was only just over 5 months after the war began.