WW2 what if hitler went East?
Discussion
KAgantua said:
MarkRSi said:
slipstream 1985 said:
What would have happened if hitler had gone East into Russia first instead of france say even with Japan attacking from the other side? How would the war have trned out?
You've got a Chronosphere haven't you? 
4x4Tyke said:
slipstream 1985 said:
What would have happened if hitler had gone East into Russia first instead of france say even with Japan attacking from the other side? How would the war have trned out?
He did go east, he invaded Poland which is why we and the French declared war on him. Google the Phoney warAs for C&C, I used to love using the chronosphere to diddle enemy units on Red Alert 2
Derek Smith said:
I doubt we would have been beaten by 1941. That was a bit too early. Also, if Germany had been committed to an all out offensive against Russia then U-Boat construction might not have been seen as a priority. Also, if Hitler had opted for an eastern front before attacking the rest of Europe, then it is doubtful he would have had a victory in Russia by then so would not have declared war on France and the UK. I'm doubtful Germany would have defeated Russia in any case. It is quite big. Communications would have been all but impossible over anything west of Moscow/Stalingrad if there was a resistance, and there would have been.
Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a tonnage war, the Germans could only win this before the US shipbuilding industry got into its stride (assuming the Elektro boats are not effective later in the war).Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
V8 Fettler said:
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
The game Hearts of Iron 3 allows the player to force a peace on Russia where by Germany gets everything west of the Urals. The peace treaty never lasts long.One of the ongoing key elements in the Nazis defeat was their total lack of strategic air power.
The Luftwaffe was in essence a tactical and support arm to the Wehrmacht.
It had no strategic aircraft that could interdict the enemies logistical networks or industrial capacity.
The Blitz on the UK was punishing but they never had the numbers of bombers and no heavy lift bombers either that could deliver any overwhelming weight of ordinance.
The British and Americans developed their strategic heavy bomber forces as this was the only way that they could hit back at the enemy for several years in the early stages of the war. Once established it was used to devastating effect with prolonged strategic offensives. Now we can debate the usage in the late stages of the war, but without this capacity to hit the enemy at it's core we would never have had the time to build up our offensive capabilities for the eventual invasion of Europe.
The Luftwaffe was in essence a tactical and support arm to the Wehrmacht.
It had no strategic aircraft that could interdict the enemies logistical networks or industrial capacity.
The Blitz on the UK was punishing but they never had the numbers of bombers and no heavy lift bombers either that could deliver any overwhelming weight of ordinance.
The British and Americans developed their strategic heavy bomber forces as this was the only way that they could hit back at the enemy for several years in the early stages of the war. Once established it was used to devastating effect with prolonged strategic offensives. Now we can debate the usage in the late stages of the war, but without this capacity to hit the enemy at it's core we would never have had the time to build up our offensive capabilities for the eventual invasion of Europe.
There is a good summary of the points SPS raises here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich...
The "what if" scenario I've wondered about is what if the Nazis hadn't gone for the extermination policies but had just stuck to military conflict. No camps, no resources spent building and manning them, no troops used to round up, transport and guard hundreds of thousands of people, but instead directed into fighting the war. Would that have made the difference in Russia?
Paul Dishman said:
The "what if" scenario I've wondered about is what if the Nazis hadn't gone for the extermination policies but had just stuck to military conflict. No camps, no resources spent building and manning them, no troops used to round up, transport and guard hundreds of thousands of people, but instead directed into fighting the war. Would that have made the difference in Russia?
I'd say no, but a lot of the "Jewish Problem" was definitely of their own making. They were inviting native Germans back to Germany, tossing Jews and Poles out of their homes/businesses and eventually planned a sort of Greater Germany which spread into the East, with the Poles/Slavs moved further east like the Balkans and the Jews further east still.Then as the logistical nightmare unfolded, alternative schemes such as dumping the Jews in Africa or elsewhere started to be floated to deal with the huge amount of internal displacement.
So a mess for sure, but I don't think it would have saved them from the Soviets.
With WWII almost gone from memory it's almost amazing at just how rational-yet-f
king-nasty the Nazi's were. I mean, how cold do you need to be and sit around a table and plot something like this:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
V8 Fettler said:
Derek Smith said:
I doubt we would have been beaten by 1941. That was a bit too early. Also, if Germany had been committed to an all out offensive against Russia then U-Boat construction might not have been seen as a priority. Also, if Hitler had opted for an eastern front before attacking the rest of Europe, then it is doubtful he would have had a victory in Russia by then so would not have declared war on France and the UK. I'm doubtful Germany would have defeated Russia in any case. It is quite big. Communications would have been all but impossible over anything west of Moscow/Stalingrad if there was a resistance, and there would have been.
Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a tonnage war, the Germans could only win this before the US shipbuilding industry got into its stride (assuming the Elektro boats are not effective later in the war).Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
Paul Dishman said:
The "what if" scenario I've wondered about is what if the Nazis hadn't gone for the extermination policies but had just stuck to military conflict. No camps, no resources spent building and manning them, no troops used to round up, transport and guard hundreds of thousands of people, but instead directed into fighting the war. Would that have made the difference in Russia?
The problem with this scenario is, however, that without the whole 'racial superiority' aspect it is unlikely that 'Tache boy would have gone east. If we hypothise that the Nazis could actually ignore their 'purity quest' then that could make life very difficult for uncle JoeHosenbugler said:
The Germans could have gone through their allied countries, Austria , Hungary and opened an offensive through the Ukraine . This latter could have gained them a large resource of recruits , the Ukrainians hated Stalin.
The offensive would kick off in April/May , this would coincide with a Japanese offensive launched into the USSR's back door via China (The japanese were already there). Whilst you can never be 100% , I can not perceive the USSR surviving such an offensive.
It's surprising the Germans lost anyhow, had they launched Barbarrosa in April/May it may well have been a different story.
IIRC the Japanese were never going to have a go at the Ruskies as they'd had their arses handed to them by Zukov at some point before Barbarosa. That being said HAD they been able to tie down a large portion of the Eastern Russian forces it would have made life 'interesting'The offensive would kick off in April/May , this would coincide with a Japanese offensive launched into the USSR's back door via China (The japanese were already there). Whilst you can never be 100% , I can not perceive the USSR surviving such an offensive.
It's surprising the Germans lost anyhow, had they launched Barbarrosa in April/May it may well have been a different story.
s2art said:
V8 Fettler said:
Derek Smith said:
I doubt we would have been beaten by 1941. That was a bit too early. Also, if Germany had been committed to an all out offensive against Russia then U-Boat construction might not have been seen as a priority. Also, if Hitler had opted for an eastern front before attacking the rest of Europe, then it is doubtful he would have had a victory in Russia by then so would not have declared war on France and the UK. I'm doubtful Germany would have defeated Russia in any case. It is quite big. Communications would have been all but impossible over anything west of Moscow/Stalingrad if there was a resistance, and there would have been.
Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a tonnage war, the Germans could only win this before the US shipbuilding industry got into its stride (assuming the Elektro boats are not effective later in the war).Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
h! 
Jimbeaux said:
s2art said:
V8 Fettler said:
Derek Smith said:
I doubt we would have been beaten by 1941. That was a bit too early. Also, if Germany had been committed to an all out offensive against Russia then U-Boat construction might not have been seen as a priority. Also, if Hitler had opted for an eastern front before attacking the rest of Europe, then it is doubtful he would have had a victory in Russia by then so would not have declared war on France and the UK. I'm doubtful Germany would have defeated Russia in any case. It is quite big. Communications would have been all but impossible over anything west of Moscow/Stalingrad if there was a resistance, and there would have been.
Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a tonnage war, the Germans could only win this before the US shipbuilding industry got into its stride (assuming the Elektro boats are not effective later in the war).Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
h! 
slipstream 1985 said:
What would have happened if hitler had gone East into Russia first instead of france say even with Japan attacking from the other side? How would the war have trned out?
There was a very good doc on a while back, of the three great plans drawn up to destroy the USSR, the doc reckoned that if the Black Sea one has been plumped for, Hitler would have secured an earlier victory, this was also taking into account the dawdling on the Western front. Of course stopping the BEF from leaving Dunkirk or simply accepting the British entreaties of peace in the 'phoney war' would have allowed him to zip off earlier, but without the big Luftwaffe losses. Also, rapid gains may have totally changed Japan's gameplan, and there would have been no non-aggression pact in the East.irocfan said:
The problem with this scenario is, however, that without the whole 'racial superiority' aspect it is unlikely that 'Tache boy would have gone east. If we hypothise that the Nazis could actually ignore their 'purity quest' then that could make life very difficult for uncle Joe
I think if they were normal conquerors just looking to do a bit of empire building rather than exterminating psychos, then certainly in the east people would've flocked to their banner and contributed to the war effort.Plus you would have had significant Jewish resources to utilise as well: manpower, financial and intellectual.
But then they wouldn't have been the Nazis and just the German Empire redux. It probably would have been for the better though.
techiedave said:
Derek Smith said:
There was a book/long short storey on this, although the basis was scifi, suggesting we'd (or rahter they'd) have gone to the Moon earlier, then to the planets. What happened to the Jews and the other groups destined for the concentration camps was not covered in too much detail.
That's funny as I seem to remember some trailer for a film or TV series too ? Around 6 months agoI suspect the TV programme was easier going than the book.
s2art said:
Jimbeaux said:
s2art said:
V8 Fettler said:
Derek Smith said:
I doubt we would have been beaten by 1941. That was a bit too early. Also, if Germany had been committed to an all out offensive against Russia then U-Boat construction might not have been seen as a priority. Also, if Hitler had opted for an eastern front before attacking the rest of Europe, then it is doubtful he would have had a victory in Russia by then so would not have declared war on France and the UK. I'm doubtful Germany would have defeated Russia in any case. It is quite big. Communications would have been all but impossible over anything west of Moscow/Stalingrad if there was a resistance, and there would have been.
Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a tonnage war, the Germans could only win this before the US shipbuilding industry got into its stride (assuming the Elektro boats are not effective later in the war).Then again, Stalin might well have been deposed/killed if there were a series of defeats and his replacement might well have sued for peace.
If Hitler had taken Moscow and Stalingrad then the winter still would have been a particularly bad one and he'd probably have made no further progress, and might even have set up a defensive line once he had the oil fields.
Russsia was 'safe' from their eastern flank as they had enough problems with the Japanese.
What is remarkable is that the war developed the way it did. Japan's attack on the USA was a bit of a godsend for the Allies. But what if we weren't at war with Germany? Would we have rushed to America's side with the threat of Germany attacking? There was a pact between Japan and Germany, although I doubt it would have been enough to start a western front if they were struggling in Russia.
All "what-if" scenarios have unknowns; would the USSR have sued for peace if Moscow had fallen to the Germans? Would Hitler have accepted a conditional surrender?
h! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time
rxe said:
Any scenario where Hitler invaded Russia involves him losing the war. If he had not invaded Russia, IMO we'd all be speaking German now, and British Leyland would never have happened.
Interesting theory... but how would the axis have overthrown the industrial powerhouse that is the USA and how would they have had enough men to control both the US and Europe?The amount of military equipment the US was churning out after 41 was simply staggering! Then there is the small matter of the A-bomb...
amgmcqueen said:
Interesting theory... but how would the axis have overthrown the industrial powerhouse that is the USA and how would they have had enough men to control both the US and Europe?
The amount of military equipment the US was churning out after 41 was simply staggering! Then there is the small matter of the A-bomb...
There was a majority in favour of isolationism in the US, not enough not to supply arms, to both sides, but a majority. Most papers were pushing it out all the time as well. There was a significant number of people in the UK who didn't want to honour the treaty with Poland. Whilst we had no treaty with Czechoslovakia for military intervention it has been referred to at the Great Betrayal, and there was a section of the government that wanted to be more forceful, perhaps with the help of the USA. But no.The amount of military equipment the US was churning out after 41 was simply staggering! Then there is the small matter of the A-bomb...
So if Germany did invade the UK it is probable that Eire would have been given NI on condition of fortifications along the coast. Where would the yanks have invaded even if they wanted to? They'd have allowed everything to go on unhindered if the UK had been successfully invaded or we'd surrendered.
Would Japan still have attacked the Pacific fleets? I think so but with all their industry the war with them might well have been over earlier and with fewer casualties. Geremny was, of course, an ally of Germany but I feel certain that there would have been diplomatic moves somewhere.
However, post war America had a massive amount of military hardware, infrastructure and personnel. The military had a massive lobbying capability and for many arms manufacturers it was almost like a subsidy. It would have to go somewhere and it would have fought against what they thought of as socialism and leave Hitler as a barrier against the western spread of Stalin. But the same would go for him. His western border would have been reinforced and the southern movement of Russia might have come earlier.
A new world order? Or would things have sorted themselves out eventually, as they normally do.
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