Man who had not eaten or drunk for hours - crashes train !

[ikarl]

bhstewie said:

Because there have never been train crashes that don't involve Muslims or people who have eaten?

Drip drip is right.

You are obviously correct, however it appears that this risk could quite easily be mitigated if people would openly talk about it

Employee > Employer

[Joey Ramone]

mph1977 said:

Part of the issue with Ramadan is because it's based on the lunar calender it 'moves' through the year ... not as much of an issue in the lower latitudes as their day length varies rather less than the higher latitudes ...

Unfortunately the jurists have not been persuaded on the need for limitation of the length of the fast in the higher latitudes ...

Mate of mine's a UK based Muslim who observes ramadan pretty rigidly. When it was in June last year, and the sun rose at 4am and it didn't get dark until 10pm, he simply observed Saudi time for the duration. Said it would have been ludicrous otherwise.

(awaits obvious remarks that religion is ludicrous per se, let alone starving and dehydrating yourself for a month)

[petop]

Trust me, certain followers of Ramadan, Eid and the like in the UK take the piss.

Out here in Afghanistan where its kind of taken with a bit more importance they still come into work and are able to eat/drink with caveats. Here its done properly. I think half the time in UK they like to "practice being a Muslim" without actually knowing what to do.

I showed the Mail report to one of our interpreters who laughed and said it was the guys own fault and there was no need for it to happen.

[Mark300zx]

Oh dear the liberal thought nazis are out, it's a legitimate concern for anyone in a risk critical job and trying to say that someone who is in this critical position and who hasn't eaten or hydrated for 17 hours isn't a hazard, is being ridiculous.

Open discussion is the way forward,trying to hinder every discussion about race/religion just creates more hatred.

[bitchstewie]

Mark300zx said:

Oh dear the liberal thought nazis are out, it's a legitimate concern for anyone in a risk critical job and trying to say that someone who is in this critical position and who hasn't eaten or hydrated for 17 hours isn't a hazard, is being ridiculous.

Open discussion is the way forward,trying to hinder every discussion about race/religion just creates more hatred.

I think we'd all agree with that tbh.

But the Mail article is simply lazy gutter journalism created to give a misleading impressions vs. the actual crash report.

Like you say open discussion and it does seem some work has been done http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/142466/FileName/Effe...

[anonymous-user]

I'm more surprised we're blaming just 15 hours without food for potenitally fatal negligence?

I imagine plenty of people go 15+ hours without food on a daily basis, its very easy to do if you don't eat breakfast and do long, busy hours on shift work. I don't eat breakfast and would often do 10-11 hour shifts after getting up without eating or drinking anything for the shift because I didn't have the time or desire to do so. I'd occasionally buy a bottle of water, but more often than not it would be nothing then a big meal when I got home, rinse and repeat. That was just my routine.

Never found it to affected my driving ability at all, certainly not to the point I'd plow through two red lights...

[dudleybloke]

They wouldn't let a Catholic drive a train after he had been on the communion wine.

[anonymous-user]

Couldn't the railway companies just not run any trains when Rammmading dong is on
that way they wont be discriminating against no one would they.
Simples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pyA6jAM3_I

[Mark300zx]

Sure there are always other factors when a crash happens it is rarely down to one cause but several factors in a very unfortunate combination, but we have a duty to reduce those factors.

I think if you are in a job where you have a responsibility for others and these jobs could be Doctors/Firefighters/Police/Pilots then how would you feel being in the care of those individuals, who haven't maintained their own welfare for whatever reason, so that they can not look after others?

Sure the Daily Mail may be gutter journalism, but if they raise a valid point it is still pertinent?

[J4CKO]

I think it is a valid concern, however there does seem to be a propensity to dress up a legitimate issue and package it to Middle England with a subtext of

"Look what these bds are upto again, causing havoc, you dont like them do you ? grrrrr "

I know people who just love to post anything anyone of a Muslim background has done on Facebook, usually appropriated from some white supremacist propaganda site like "British Passport", the comments on there are tryuly terrifying, semi literate halfwits looking to demonise just about anyone who isnt like them.

I personally think that the fasting in Islam has a point, to remind those who are fortunate what it feels like to be hungry for a while but having spoken to the Muslims I know they follow it but treat it sensibly, no point flaking out st your desk or making yourself ill, there are a lot of get out causes in the Koran but there are hardliners who go a bit overboard.

I am sure some read the Mail to renew their levels of hatred and wind themselves into a froth, I dont mind an issue being raised and it is a valid concern but it has quite a bit of baggage with it when someone reposts it to FB, not with any legitimate concern for train travellers safety, they seem to be saying,

"See, I told you, they are all s"

When a White Train Driver is caught pissed on duty they wont repost that.

There are circa six million Muslims in Britain, they wont all get it right, some will do unpleasant or stupid things but so does every other section of society.

[bitchstewie]

Mark300zx said:

Sure the Daily Mail may be gutter journalism, but if they raise a valid point it is still pertinent?

I think the difficulty is how do you determine what is a valid point?

At face value then of course yes, hours without food or drink doesn't sound as if it's a good thing for anyone, but as others have pointed out not eating or drinking for sustained periods isn't something that's solely the preserve of Muslims on Ramadan.

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

I think all I'm saying is that if lack of food played a part then it needs addressing, but the headline suggests a certain agenda and it isn't one that's about promoting rail safety or the importance of healthy eating.

[PF62]

279 said:

I'm more surprised we're blaming just 15 hours without food for potenitally fatal negligence?

I imagine plenty of people go 15+ hours without food on a daily basis...

It is not just the lack of food or drink, but the disrupted sleep pattern for days/weeks.

The driver had been up at 2.30am to eat then go back to bed to hopefully get some sleep, and had been doing it for days. The incident occurred at 6pm in the evening, which has got to be a low point.

In this case the cause did seem to be more a lack of experience than anything else, but even so, if they had been fresh as a daisy the outcome might well have been different.

An interesting dilemma for any employer. Carry out a risk assessment that points to it being a good idea that your staff in a high risk occupation are well rested and have adequate food and drink breaks, but know that a group of employees will not be doing that.

[768]

bhstewie said:

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

You're comparing a large meal and a doze in a training course with what goes on for a month at Ramadan and then driving a train? I suppose that's one way of making the Mail look completely innocent of having an agenda!

[J4CKO]

768 said:

bhstewie said:

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

You're comparing a large meal and a doze in a training course with what goes on for a month at Ramadan and then driving a train? I suppose that's one way of making the Mail look completely innocent of having an agenda!

It is a concern, but I know what he is on about, someone I know posts all sorts about Muslims, never really anything negative about any other race, religion, culture or whatever, his last post was,

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/702254/Hate-preac...


He may well be doing,. Choudary isnt a very nice chap all said and done but it loses its value if every post made is something a Muslim is doing that is evil, he generally doesnt even check the validity of the posts, one turned out to be something made up, based on something from 13 years ago, even the dodgy website took it down, I politely pointed out that it was made up on theor page and got a lot of abuse.

He sent round a thing about that Airbus A340 that got crashed on the ground before leaving Airbus

This video is pretty much the same thing,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZRxa6ZU1_Y

I had read about that incident a few days prior and pointed out the innacuracies, but, not interested in that, he replies to my email,

"ITS ONLY A BIT OF A PISSTAKE, DONT TAKE THINGS SO SERIOUSLY !"

It isnt though it is, it is a constant stream of hatred, you dont like anyone a bit Muslim, but my thinking is six million Muslims in the country, perhaps try to get on and not keep spewing this drivel, if a Muslim has done something wrong, then they have to answer to the judicial system.

I notice I have been left off the hilarious anti Muslim email chains now.

I have my own concerns and prejudices, I am not perfect but I am trying to rationalise and question them, are they valid concerns or just casual racism, fear of the unknown or stupidity ?

[anonymous-user]

PF62 said:

It is not just the lack of food or drink, but the disrupted sleep pattern for days/weeks.

The driver had been up at 2.30am to eat then go back to bed to hopefully get some sleep, and had been doing it for days. The incident occurred at 6pm in the evening, which has got to be a low point.

In this case the cause did seem to be more a lack of experience than anything else, but even so, if they had been fresh as a daisy the outcome might well have been different.

Forgive me as I've done shift work for a while and might have forgotten what is 'normal', but eating/going to bed at 2:30am for a shift that starts at 2pm sounds perfectly reasonable to me?

Excluding his religion and its customs, it also seems perfectly reasonable that someone with such a strange working pattern may choose to forgo breakfast/lunch, and given that the incident occurred only 4 hours into the shift, would he had even had a lunch break at this point during a normal day? I'd suspect possibly not, so basically, man misses breakfast and crashes train? I'm not buying it.

They'll be hundreds of shift workers in similarly high risk occupations that will do exactly the same, day in, day out. And yes, that does include drinking water - If you're working away from a running source of water its amazing how often you can 'forget' to drink something.

[bitchstewie]

768 said:

bhstewie said:

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

You're comparing a large meal and a doze in a training course with what goes on for a month at Ramadan and then driving a train? I suppose that's one way of making the Mail look completely innocent of having an agenda!

Of course I'm not comparing the two but what I am saying is that not having eaten isn't all that unique and something the fact that you have eaten also has a negative impact on your performance.

The Mail have seized on one item that the RAIB couldn't establish played a part in the accident, and have have used it to make a headline to give an entirely different impression.

If all you saw was the headline "Muslim train driver who went through two red lights and crashed causing days of delays had gone without any food or drink for 15 HOURS because of Ramadan" what would you think?

a) The RAIB conducted a full investigation and didn't find that the fasting played a part
b) The train crashed because the driver wasn't able to concentrate due to hunger because he's a Muslim and he's fasting?

I'm going to go with b) because it makes for a much better headline and they need something to write about.

[J4CKO]

bhstewie said:

768 said:

bhstewie said:

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

You're comparing a large meal and a doze in a training course with what goes on for a month at Ramadan and then driving a train? I suppose that's one way of making the Mail look completely innocent of having an agenda!

Of course I'm not comparing the two but what I am saying is that not having eaten isn't all that unique and something the fact that you have eaten also has a negative impact on your performance.

The Mail have seized on one item that the RAIB couldn't establish played a part in the accident, and have have used it to make a headline to give an entirely different impression.

If all you saw was the headline "Muslim train driver who went through two red lights and crashed causing days of delays had gone without any food or drink for 15 HOURS because of Ramadan" what would you think?

a) The RAIB conducted a full investigation and didn't find that the fasting played a part
b) The train crashed because the driver wasn't able to concentrate due to hunger because he's a Muslim and he's fasting?

I'm going to go with b) because it makes for a much better headline and they need something to write about.

Mail readers lap it up, however you have the other side where certain press leave out ethnicity entirely where they can.

Truth is somewhere in between I guess.

[PH XKR]

Remember that chap who caused a train crash in Yorkshire years back after falling asleep at the wheel, if only he could have used the Ramadan get out clause

[Mark300zx]

bhstewie said:

I think the difficulty is how do you determine what is a valid point?

At face value then of course yes, hours without food or drink doesn't sound as if it's a good thing for anyone, but as others have pointed out not eating or drinking for sustained periods isn't something that's solely the preserve of Muslims on Ramadan.

I'm sure sometimes the fact you have eaten can impair performance.

For example I'm sure we've all had large lunches at some point or another and then struggled to stay awake for the first hour or so afterwards.

I know that when I've attended and given training courses that the 1.30pm - 2.30pm window can be a graveyard of bobbing heads as people struggle to pay attention if they're especially stuffed.

I think all I'm saying is that if lack of food played a part then it needs addressing, but the headline suggests a certain agenda and it isn't one that's about promoting rail safety or the importance of healthy eating.

I have worked with people who have not hydrated or eaten in a very risk critical job and they are very grumpy and their decision making ability is impaired, now multiply that for many days on end and you have a potential disaster on your hands.

To debate what is and is not a valid point is subjective and commenting on being sleepy after a big lunch is grasping at straws.

Edited by Mark300zx on Sunday 21st August 19:08

[Turquoise]

There was incident where a Muslim copper was chasing a suspect during Ramadan. He only lasted about 2 mins before he had to give up because he nearly fainted...