Man who had not eaten or drunk for hours - crashes train !

[Art0ir]

I was on a very large construction site working last year in Manchester. I know it was one of the hottest days of the year because a few weeks ago Facebook kindly reminded me of a picture I took at the time. One of the fasting engineers collapsed onsite a few stories up a half constructed building and I remember our NI based H&S Director scratching his head over how to address it.

[PF62]

bhstewie said:

The Mail have seized on one item that the RAIB couldn't establish played a part in the accident, and have have used it to make a headline to give an entirely different impression.

Of course that is just the Mail being the Mail.

However the RAIB did say -

The driver of train 3H52 told RAIB that he had woken during the night before the accident at 02:30 hrs, to eat a light meal, as part of his observance of Ramadan. He went back to bed at 03:30 hrs, slept for a further seven hours before coming on duty at 13:07 hrs, and had not had anything else to eat or drink before the accident occurred. From the evidence available, RAIB is unable to determine whether this interruption to his sleep, and subsequent fasting, was a factor in what happened on this occasion. However, RAIB observes that there is research showing that fasting can affect people’s concentration levels. RSSB has published guidance for the railway industry on the topic in document S220 ‘Effects of fasting on fitness to drive’.

"Unable to determine" is not exactly a clean bill of health, and the mere fact that they mentioned it means that they had concerns that they were not able to dismiss.

The effects of fasting document that the RAIB refer to is a masterful document in avoiding the issue.

It lists a whole range of possible problems such as dizziness or light-headedness, headache, tiredness and sleepiness, becoming irritable, and reduced concentration, just the sort of thing that you don't really want a train driver to suffer from.

However instead of making clear statements about the train companies must do to protect their staff and the public, the summary is a limp -
- Provide health and safety advice to employees
- Have a Ramadan policy and permit flexible working
- Permit reduced hours if requested, but they must make them up later in the year.

So it puts the problem in the hands of the employee, and if the employee doesn't want to change their hours or take shorter hours, no problem, just let the dizzy, lightheaded, tired, irritable driver with no concentration carry on as normal.

[Sheets Tabuer]

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

I did work in an airport once and we were putting in the hours and a guy I worked with who had not eaten by 9pm walked off the job because he said he couldn't concentrate and was feeling dizzy, He left us right in the st doing the SAN upgrade. I called bullst but wonder if there is something in it.

[J4CKO]

Turquoise said:

There was incident where a Muslim copper was chasing a suspect during Ramadan. He only lasted about 2 mins before he had to give up because he nearly fainted...

I spent ten years at Greater Manchester Police, there were officers that would give up much sooner due to being obese or off on sick for months for no apparent reason.

[Turquoise]

J4CKO said:

Turquoise said:

There was incident where a Muslim copper was chasing a suspect during Ramadan. He only lasted about 2 mins before he had to give up because he nearly fainted...

I spent ten years at Greater Manchester Police, there were officers that would give up much sooner due to being obese or off on sick for months for no apparent reason.

I know where I will carry out my next crime spree then. Thanks.

[Sheepshanks]

Sheets Tabuer said:

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

You're extremely unusual in that respect.

[Sheets Tabuer]

Sheepshanks said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

You're extremely unusual in that respect.

I always thought I was normal, as hunter gatherers we'd be fecked if we fell apart after a few hours without food.

[Sheepshanks]

Sheets Tabuer said:

I always thought I was normal, as hunter gatherers we'd be fecked if we fell apart after a few hours without food.

You said days though. And lack of water can have an effect very quickly.

[s2art]

Sheepshanks said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

You're extremely unusual in that respect.

I am similar but not as extreme as that. BUT only if I have slept well.

[J4CKO]

Turquoise said:

J4CKO said:

Turquoise said:

There was incident where a Muslim copper was chasing a suspect during Ramadan. He only lasted about 2 mins before he had to give up because he nearly fainted...

I spent ten years at Greater Manchester Police, there were officers that would give up much sooner due to being obese or off on sick for months for no apparent reason.

I know where I will carry out my next crime spree then. Thanks.

They still have a few super fit ones, and Alsations, they dont get to dine in the canteen and can run pretty fast

[AJS-]

Don't really see the Islamophobia there. He was a Muslim observing ramadan. He crashed a train and it appears his fasting may have been a factor.

Would anyone really rather this was covered up or omitted for the political end of social harmony? Or believe that such a strategy would even work?

Here's the BBC being Islamophobic too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-371284...

And the deeply Islamophobic police in the UAE also noticed this phenomenon.

http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/transport/eight-kil...

[Turquoise]

J4CKO said:

Turquoise said:

J4CKO said:

Turquoise said:

There was incident where a Muslim copper was chasing a suspect during Ramadan. He only lasted about 2 mins before he had to give up because he nearly fainted...

I spent ten years at Greater Manchester Police, there were officers that would give up much sooner due to being obese or off on sick for months for no apparent reason.

I know where I will carry out my next crime spree then. Thanks.

They still have a few super fit ones, and Alsations, they dont get to dine in the canteen and can run pretty fast

Foiled again!! I'm just not cut out to be a supervillain...

[rscott]

AJS- said:

Don't really see the Islamophobia there. He was a Muslim observing ramadan. He crashed a train and it appears his fasting may have been a factor.

Would anyone really rather this was covered up or omitted for the political end of social harmony? Or believe that such a strategy would even work?

Here's the BBC being Islamophobic too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-371284...

And the deeply Islamophobic police in the UAE also noticed this phenomenon.

http://m.gulfnews.com/news/uae/transport/eight-kil...

I'd say the Bbc were being a little misleading saying he'd fasted for 16 hours when at least 7 of them were spent asleep.

Don't think anyone's being Islamaphobic. The RAIB report seems to suggest a reasonable adjustment which would reduce the risks without impacting too much on other employees.

[battered]

rscott said:

I'd say the Bbc were being a little misleading saying he'd fasted for 16 hours when at least 7 of them were spent asleep.

Don't think anyone's being Islamaphobic. The RAIB report seems to suggest a reasonable adjustment which would reduce the risks without impacting too much on other employees.

Absolutely this. If I skip breakfast tomorrow then by 12 I'm 16 hours without food. The horrors! I'll be collapsing in the factory!

Er, no.

The way that you deal with this is that you assess all your staff capabilities just as you do for (say) a pregnant woman. You have the discussion that goes "does anything get in the way of you doing your job?" and that opens to door to the dialogue. If you have people who are very old or young or fat or thin, or who fast for whatever reason (religion, sport, dieting) or who are sleep deprived (children, sports training, obligation to piss it up and shag women half their age every weekend) then you allow them to say and to agree a workaround. This could be light duties, shorter hours, days off unpaid, whatever. If they work shifts this is part of it. If they then keel over (and there is no evidence here to say that this was a factor in this case, only a load of "snanstereason dunnit?" BS from on here) then it's possibly a disciplinary matter. You haven't discriminated against this person on the grounds of their religious beliefs/pregnancy/obesity/anorexia/anything else, you have talked to them about the job demands and how it fits in with the rest of their life, you have allowed them the opportunity to ask for an accommodation, they have not done so and they have fallen down (perhaps literally) on the job, putting themselves and others at risk. What else are you to do as an employer? This is the way to have a proper adult conversation about it without concentrating on race, religion or anything else. It also means that you get away from the casual assumption that the man having a bit of a kip, getting up in the night, eating, then kipping 7 hours and coming to work, was a factor in having an accident, without any evidence to support this. In fact I'm going to do something similar tonight, I had a snooze earlier, dinner about 8, is anyone stopping me getting in the car about 7 because I'll be a dreadful hazard to shipping? No, I thought not.

Now with that in mind I'm off to get my beauty sleep.

[Zombie]

So, to summerise, it's not Ok for someone to observe ramadan if they're employed to do a job that puts people at risk due to impaired judgement?

And their judgement is impaired by a lack of food / drink / sleep?

Could the same not be said of any parent with a young child?

Or a junior doctor?

The only difference here is people's perception of what constitutes a choice or necessity.

[Mark300zx]

You are forgetting physical performance, if a Firefighter hasn't hydrated or eaten for 17 hours he poses a serious risk for others.

But if someone's working hours or personal life affects their performance then all parties concerned need to communicate this and I believe many companies are now legislating for these variables, probably with the introduction of corporate manslaughter!

[Sylvaforever]

The fact that his employment held great personal responsibility was for this individual secondary to that of an imaginary deity.

Feel free to be offended, they won't probably be cutting YOU out of the twisted metal next time.

[JagLover]

Sheets Tabuer said:

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

Well speaking personally my concentration etc is impaired just delaying lunch by 1/2 hour let alone delaying it by hours.

Lack of fluids would be an even worse issue for me though.

[ikarl]

Sheets Tabuer said:

Sheepshanks said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

Are people that affected by not eating, I can go for days without food and not notice any difference at all, certainly no dizziness or anything.

You're extremely unusual in that respect.

I always thought I was normal, as hunter gatherers we'd be fecked if we fell apart after a few hours without food.

I struggle with concentration if I don't eat for more than 8 hours (excluding sleep).

Not sure I would survive very well as a hunter-gatherer! Reckon it's been beaten out of most of the human race where there's a local shop you can go to 24 hours a day

[del mar]

battered said:

Absolutely this. If I skip breakfast tomorrow then by 12 I'm 16 hours without food. The horrors! I'll be collapsing in the factory!

Er, no.

The way that you deal with this is that you assess all your staff capabilities just as you do for (say) a pregnant woman. You have the discussion that goes "does anything get in the way of you doing your job?" and that opens to door to the dialogue. If you have people who are very old or young or fat or thin, or who fast for whatever reason (religion, sport, dieting) or who are sleep deprived (children, sports training, obligation to piss it up and shag women half their age every weekend) then you allow them to say and to agree a workaround. This could be light duties, shorter hours, days off unpaid, whatever. If they work shifts this is part of it. If they then keel over (and there is no evidence here to say that this was a factor in this case, only a load of "snanstereason dunnit?" BS from on here) then it's possibly a disciplinary matter. You haven't discriminated against this person on the grounds of their religious beliefs/pregnancy/obesity/anorexia/anything else, you have talked to them about the job demands and how it fits in with the rest of their life, you have allowed them the opportunity to ask for an accommodation, they have not done so and they have fallen down (perhaps literally) on the job, putting themselves and others at risk. What else are you to do as an employer? This is the way to have a proper adult conversation about it without concentrating on race, religion or anything else. It also means that you get away from the casual assumption that the man having a bit of a kip, getting up in the night, eating, then kipping 7 hours and coming to work, was a factor in having an accident, without any evidence to support this. In fact I'm going to do something similar tonight, I had a snooze earlier, dinner about 8, is anyone stopping me getting in the car about 7 because I'll be a dreadful hazard to shipping? No, I thought not.

Now with that in mind I'm off to get my beauty sleep.

That sounds wonderful in practice, but requires people to admit that they might not be at full capacity - not always easy to do.

I would be surprised if you could get a Muslim to come to the office and explain that they might not be as sharp as normal due to fasting.