Man who had not eaten or drunk for hours - crashes train !
Discussion
PF62 said:
However the RAIB did say -
The driver of train 3H52 told RAIB that he had woken during the night before the accident at 02:30 hrs, to eat a light meal, as part of his observance of Ramadan. He went back to bed at 03:30 hrs, slept for a further seven hours before coming on duty at 13:07 hrs, and had not had anything else to eat or drink before the accident occurred. From the evidence available, RAIB is unable to determine whether this interruption to his sleep, and subsequent fasting, was a factor in what happened on this occasion. However, RAIB observes that there is research showing that fasting can affect people’s concentration levels. RSSB has published guidance for the railway industry on the topic in document S220 ‘Effects of fasting on fitness to drive’.
"Unable to determine" is not exactly a clean bill of health, and the mere fact that they mentioned it means that they had concerns that they were not able to dismiss.
The effects of fasting document that the RAIB refer to is a masterful document in avoiding the issue.
It lists a whole range of possible problems such as dizziness or light-headedness, headache, tiredness and sleepiness, becoming irritable, and reduced concentration, just the sort of thing that you don't really want a train driver to suffer from.
However instead of making clear statements about the train companies must do to protect their staff and the public, the summary is a limp -
- Provide health and safety advice to employees
- Have a Ramadan policy and permit flexible working
- Permit reduced hours if requested, but they must make them up later in the year.
So it puts the problem in the hands of the employee, and if the employee doesn't want to change their hours or take shorter hours, no problem, just let the dizzy, lightheaded, tired, irritable driver with no concentration carry on as normal.
FFS, just how stupid has the UK become? The answers's obvious...don't employ Muslim train drivers, they're simply unfit for working safety standards and a significant danger to passengers, other trains, railway workers, themselves and anyone else within the vicinity of their train. Does it really take a serious accident and an RAIB report to highlight the fThe driver of train 3H52 told RAIB that he had woken during the night before the accident at 02:30 hrs, to eat a light meal, as part of his observance of Ramadan. He went back to bed at 03:30 hrs, slept for a further seven hours before coming on duty at 13:07 hrs, and had not had anything else to eat or drink before the accident occurred. From the evidence available, RAIB is unable to determine whether this interruption to his sleep, and subsequent fasting, was a factor in what happened on this occasion. However, RAIB observes that there is research showing that fasting can affect people’s concentration levels. RSSB has published guidance for the railway industry on the topic in document S220 ‘Effects of fasting on fitness to drive’.
"Unable to determine" is not exactly a clean bill of health, and the mere fact that they mentioned it means that they had concerns that they were not able to dismiss.
The effects of fasting document that the RAIB refer to is a masterful document in avoiding the issue.
It lists a whole range of possible problems such as dizziness or light-headedness, headache, tiredness and sleepiness, becoming irritable, and reduced concentration, just the sort of thing that you don't really want a train driver to suffer from.
However instead of making clear statements about the train companies must do to protect their staff and the public, the summary is a limp -
- Provide health and safety advice to employees
- Have a Ramadan policy and permit flexible working
- Permit reduced hours if requested, but they must make them up later in the year.
So it puts the problem in the hands of the employee, and if the employee doesn't want to change their hours or take shorter hours, no problem, just let the dizzy, lightheaded, tired, irritable driver with no concentration carry on as normal.
king obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same. i'm not racist but ...
v8250 said:
FFS, just how stupid has the UK become? The answers's obvious...don't employ Muslim train drivers, they're simply unfit for working safety standards and a significant danger to passengers, other trains, railway workers, themselves and anyone else within the vicinity of their train. Does it really take a serious accident and an RAIB report to highlight the fking obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same.
funnily enough ramadan poses far less of an issue when it falls in the winter ... king obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same. the problem as with many of these things to do with the mis use of religion is down to people tryingto prove how extra pious they are by taking things to their illogical conclusions and ignoring what is said by the relevant 'powers that be' ...
v8250 said:
FFS, just how stupid has the UK become? The answers's obvious...don't employ Muslim train drivers, they're simply unfit for working safety standards and a significant danger to passengers, other trains, railway workers, themselves and anyone else within the vicinity of their train. Does it really take a serious accident and an RAIB report to highlight the fking obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same.
You are an idiot, and seemingly a racist one at that.king obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same. AJS- said:
I guess it is largely an individual thing. Water is the big one for me. I'm not much use until I have a couple of glasses of water and I usually keep myself hydrated throughout the day. Especially in warm weather.
exactly ... there are ways and means with regard to Ramadan ( various exemptions which are considered good and proper reasons by the powers that be , various not quite exemptions which can be remediated by fasting at other times and./or making a charitable donation )
becasue ofthe way Ramadan moves due to the lunar calender it;s cyclic that it causes problems in these latitudes, if Ramadan falls in December or January when people are fasting for < 8 hours it's far less of an issue than when Ramadan falls in June or July and the fast if taken using local times is 16 + hours
mph1977 said:
i'm not racist but ...
the problem as with many of these things to do with the mis use of religion is down to people tryingto prove how extra pious they are by taking things to their illogical conclusions and ignoring what is said by the relevant 'powers that be' ...
When I was trekking in Morocco our guide said that he was not required to follow all of the usual Muslim "rules" while he was working if they were clearly not practical. This was because he was earning his living, supporting his family and doing something good for the country. He said that the same applied to sick people and pregnant women. However, he also said that you were supposed to make up for it in some way when you could. v8250 said:
FFS, just how stupid has the UK become? The answers's obvious...don't employ Muslim train drivers, they're simply unfit for working safety standards and a significant danger to passengers, other trains, railway workers, themselves and anyone else within the vicinity of their train. Does it really take a serious accident and an RAIB report to highlight the fking obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same.
funnily enough ramadan poses far less of an issue when it falls in the winter ... king obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same. the problem as with many of these things to do with the mis use of religion is down to people tryingto prove how extra pious they are by taking things to their illogical conclusions and ignoring what is said by the relevant 'powers that be' ...
I think that, for UK Muslims this is perhaps less of an issue than it could be due to the career choices and opportunities, I am sure there are Muslim firefighters but cant say I have ever seen them, Muslim Airline pilots ? I am sure there are loads for ME carriers but most airline Pilots seem to be white, middle class males between 25 and 55, and above average number of which are called Richard.
There are a lot of Muslim Taxi drivers though, which I guess is safety critical but not perhaps as much as flying an airliner, I suspect the airline authrities globally perhaps have some guidelines and the Koran does say if you are travelling you can have a pass out, I wonder if a train driver could be officially classed as travelling ?
I think a lot of the Muslim population tend to run their own business, shops, restaurants or work in IT, vast generalisation but just wondering how much of an issue ramadan induced starvation problems are based on the roles undertaken, a collegaue of mine is a white Brit who is into strange diets, he fasted for two days solid last week, he did have water though.
There are a lot of Muslim Taxi drivers though, which I guess is safety critical but not perhaps as much as flying an airliner, I suspect the airline authrities globally perhaps have some guidelines and the Koran does say if you are travelling you can have a pass out, I wonder if a train driver could be officially classed as travelling ?
I think a lot of the Muslim population tend to run their own business, shops, restaurants or work in IT, vast generalisation but just wondering how much of an issue ramadan induced starvation problems are based on the roles undertaken, a collegaue of mine is a white Brit who is into strange diets, he fasted for two days solid last week, he did have water though.
del mar said:
That sounds wonderful in practice, but requires people to admit that they might not be at full capacity - not always easy to do.
I would be surprised if you could get a Muslim to come to the office and explain that they might not be as sharp as normal due to fasting.
It's exactly what we do with pregnant women in every factory I work. Ask them what changes they need, see what we can do, moderate working time and demands, etc. We should do this for every employuee. if we do and they subsequently screw up then the onus is on them to account for their lack of performance, be that the result of a physical condition, age, lack of sleep for whatever reason, fasting, all get treated equally. You would be surprised if a Muslim came in and said he might be below par as a result of fasting, if someone who is an endurance athlete in his spare time did an event over a weekend and then came in in pieces then I would expect fair warning. If either of them dropped the ball as a result of their actions then I would quite reasonably hold them to account.I would be surprised if you could get a Muslim to come to the office and explain that they might not be as sharp as normal due to fasting.
Putting religion to one side it's very simple- if someone's weird activities interfere significantly with their work then this should be grounds for terminating their employment. This should especially be the case when safety is involved.
I'm sure religious types will claim that their little rituals aren't weird but I'll have to disagree with them.
I'm sure religious types will claim that their little rituals aren't weird but I'll have to disagree with them.
AJS- said:
I guess it is largely an individual thing. Water is the big one for me. I'm not much use until I have a couple of glasses of water and I usually keep myself hydrated throughout the day. Especially in warm weather.
you would be suprised, As your drinking enough water during the non fasting period, dehydration is not an issue and you dont feel thirsty at all.I have an issue with water also but thats if I dont have any AT ALL.
Regards to this driver the ownus is on him:
1) If it was effecting his job safety/safety of others he has enough to not fast and make up at any other time
2) If you feel like you are unable to perform a particular task, you should tell someone, especially where safety is concerned. Maybe negotiate working nights or whatever.
Rovinghawk said:
Putting religion to one side it's very simple- if someone's weird activities interfere significantly with their work then this should be grounds for terminating their employment. This should especially be the case when safety is involved.
I'm sure religious types will claim that their little rituals aren't weird but I'll have to disagree with them.
No weirder than celebrating the birth of superman and his zombie resurrection. I'm sure religious types will claim that their little rituals aren't weird but I'll have to disagree with them.
But you're partially right, if they're leaving their employer wide open for corporate manslaughter charges there's an obvious issue.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I think we'd all agree with that tbh.
But the Mail article is simply lazy gutter journalism created to give a misleading impressions vs. the actual crash report.
Like you say open discussion and it does seem some work has been done http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/142466/FileName/Effe...
Indeed, like stating 15 is almost 24. But the Mail article is simply lazy gutter journalism created to give a misleading impressions vs. the actual crash report.
Like you say open discussion and it does seem some work has been done http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/142466/FileName/Effe...
I fast 16/8. But when my activity level increases due to workload, I allow my body to tell me how to adapt, since I fast for health reasons and not mental ones.
I would imagine one solution would be to place those strictly observing Ramadan on alternate duties whilst they're fasting. Simply banning devout Muslims from being train drivers on the basis of one festival during the year, which may or may not fall at a time when the daylight hours are long, would seem an overreaction.
janesmith1950 said:
I would imagine one solution would be to place those strictly observing Ramadan on alternate duties whilst they're fasting. Simply banning devout Muslims from being train drivers on the basis of one festival during the year, which may or may not fall at a time when the daylight hours are long, would seem an overreaction.
You can do my shifts as well as yours !Thank you
del mar said:
You can do my shifts as well as yours !
Thank you
Call me a pragmatist, however I would wager the train companies lose more train driving man hours to dodgy sicknotes and other absences from across the workforce's religious and non-religious spectrum, than they ever would if they put devout Muslims on alternate duties for the short time they're fasting (when Ramadan falls into the summer months).Thank you
Personally speaking this doesn't seem a religious issue but one of fitness to work. That the employee is unfit could be incidentally down to their following religious practices. Other people might turn up worse for wear through drugs or drink. Others dangerously low from diabetes or other medical conditions.
sidicks said:
v8250 said:
FFS, just how stupid has the UK become? The answers's obvious...don't employ Muslim train drivers, they're simply unfit for working safety standards and a significant danger to passengers, other trains, railway workers, themselves and anyone else within the vicinity of their train. Does it really take a serious accident and an RAIB report to highlight the fking obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same.
You are an idiot, and seemingly a racist one at that.king obvious? And before anyone jumps on the racist bandwagon, get a grip and think this through. If it was you or your loved one/ones on a train involved in an accident, you too would be stating the same. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff