EU army - Farage yet again seems to be right
Discussion
Jimboka said:
What's the problem with a European army?. Just wish we were part of it, although haven't given up yet. Farage has caused damage to this country, good riddance from the political scene .
France. And Italy.Not sure the Spanish have any recent military experience, do they, as they ran away when Al-Quaeda shouted Boo.
And the political aspect of the Balkans clusterf&*k was reason enough not to give them actual troops until 2099.
ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
I gave you my answer:alfie2244 said:
Hands up...you got me guv.......fair cop...my opinion of what might have happened (and how naive they are) was pure conjecture based on my gut feeling and nothing more (actually included a bit of previous, direct, experience with lying politicians also )....unfortunately you will never be able to prove how wrong I am now that we are leaving.
Now will you answer my simple question now?alfie2244 said:
So if one member, Greece for example, said no to an EU army then that would be the end of that then? You are more naive than I 1st thought if you do.
ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
Didn't Steve's reply explainsteveT350C said:
to quote Junker...
"The Lisbon Treaty enables those Member States who wish, to pool their defence capabilities in the form
of a permanent structured cooperation. I think the time to make use of this possibility is now."
A permanent structured cooperation between EU states "could" be construed as an army."The Lisbon Treaty enables those Member States who wish, to pool their defence capabilities in the form
of a permanent structured cooperation. I think the time to make use of this possibility is now."
barryrs said:
ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
Didn't Steve's reply explainsteveT350C said:
to quote Junker...
"The Lisbon Treaty enables those Member States who wish, to pool their defence capabilities in the form
of a permanent structured cooperation. I think the time to make use of this possibility is now."
A permanent structured cooperation between EU states "could" be construed as an army."The Lisbon Treaty enables those Member States who wish, to pool their defence capabilities in the form
of a permanent structured cooperation. I think the time to make use of this possibility is now."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_cooperation...
RizzoTheRat said:
...and already exists (CJEF, German Netherlands Corps, presumably others), but needs agreement of the partner countries in order to be actually deployed.
But the CJEF is a collaboration coordinated by NATO (im not familiar with others).Surely an EU CJEF would be operated independently of NATO?
barryrs said:
RizzoTheRat said:
...and already exists (CJEF, German Netherlands Corps, presumably others), but needs agreement of the partner countries in order to be actually deployed.
But the CJEF is a collaboration coordinated by NATO (im not familiar with others).Surely an EU CJEF would be operated independently of NATO?
The GNR is a NATO high readiness force as both countries are members of NATO, but its free to operate at the behest of the Dutch and German governments independently of NATO.
Plus of course the EU has already conducted military operations, EUFOR has operated in Bosnia, Macedonia, DRC and Central African Republic, plus I think a few training missions, and the navy equivalent EUNAVFOR has been involved in anti piracy operations off Somalia and migrant stuff in the Mediterranean.
deckster said:
ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
Be fair now, I also said you lacked imagination. As you keep on proving.ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
You say that it is a simple question. It is a bit like asking "What should I do if I am confronted by a tyrannosaurus rex?".
They are extinct, so it in fact a completely irrelevant question.
As far as the UK is concerned, the EU will be extinct in a couple of years.
don4l said:
ATG said:
Naive? The onus on you is to describe how we could have been dragged in. Ralphr has explained clearly why we couldn't.
If you can't explain why he is wrong then you are demonstrating that your opinion is not considered; you haven't sat down and thought it through, you've just jumped to a conclusion. Calling him naive is an incredibly weak response.
The reason that we will not be part of a pan European military is quite simple.If you can't explain why he is wrong then you are demonstrating that your opinion is not considered; you haven't sat down and thought it through, you've just jumped to a conclusion. Calling him naive is an incredibly weak response.
We are leaving the EU.
Hosenbugler said:
BMRuss said:
What a surprise Farage called it correctly, again.
I would like to see Farage and Verhofstadt be the chief negotiators - it wouldn't take too long to get the deal done
Is Verhofstadt theclown who threw an eppy in the EU "Parliament" concerning the news of Brexit?I would like to see Farage and Verhofstadt be the chief negotiators - it wouldn't take too long to get the deal done
that's the chap, Farage has torn him apart on a number of occasions and quite rightly so. I'm really looking forward to our exit
don4l said:
ATG said:
I ask a simple question and the only responses are evasions because none of you can actually produce a plausible answer. All you can do is keep saying "naive". Pretty feeble.
You say that it is a simple question. It is a bit like asking "What should I do if I am confronted by a tyrannosaurus rex?".
They are extinct, so it in fact a completely irrelevant question.
As far as the UK is concerned, the EU will be extinct in a couple of years.
Your line of argument is that asking why people feared this kind of thing is unreasonable because the nation voted to Leave. That is a glaring non sequitur; it makes no sense. It's exactly the same as someone asking the goaly why he failed to save the goal and him replying "they scored so the question isn't worth asking".
ATG said:
Then prove you're more imaginative by suggesting an answer to my question.
But your question is a strawman. Nobody is suggesting that the legislative framework for an EU army exists, in the absence of a unanimous agreement from all member countries.You seem to be inferring that the fact that no such framework exists means that it cannot and will not ever exist. This is why you are being called naive (or would you prefer 'pointlessly provocative'?).
ATG said:
It's exactly the same as someone asking the goaly why he failed to save the goal and him replying "they scored so the question isn't worth asking".
I dunno what happened gaffa - now will you answer mine now please?"So if one member, Greece for example, said no to an EU army then that would be the end of that then?"
ATG said:
Jesus wept. It is a simple question and it is reasonable to ask it, because fear of this kind of thing was put forward as a reason for voting Leave.
Your line of argument is that asking why people feared this kind of thing is unreasonable because the nation voted to Leave. That is a glaring non sequitur; it makes no sense. It's exactly the same as someone asking the goaly why he failed to save the goal and him replying "they scored so the question isn't worth asking".
Your line of argument is that asking why people feared this kind of thing is unreasonable because the nation voted to Leave. That is a glaring non sequitur; it makes no sense. It's exactly the same as someone asking the goaly why he failed to save the goal and him replying "they scored so the question isn't worth asking".
Joe Hart has politely requested that he be left out of this,,er debate.
Edited by gooner1 on Wednesday 14th September 16:12
alfie2244 said:
I dunno what happened gaffa - now will you answer mine now please?
"So if one member, Greece for example, said no to an EU army then that would be the end of that then?"
Yes. The EU doesn't have the power to create an army. The European Council must give unanimous approval to grant the EU that power and all members have a seat on the Council."So if one member, Greece for example, said no to an EU army then that would be the end of that then?"
Jimboka said:
What's the problem with a European army?. Just wish we were part of it, although haven't given up yet. Farage has caused damage to this country, good riddance from the political scene .
Apart from the massive imbalance in investment in defence capabilities between member states?Apart from that leading to huge discrepancies in capabilities leading to further imbalance in who contributes what?
Apart from absolute cretins like Juncker and Tusk being in control of other nations armed forces?
Apart from the EUs piss poor track record in "interventions"?
If an EU army had been put on the referendum ballot papers, along with coming fully clean and noting "ever closer union" was still the main agenda item for the EU, the referendum vote simply would not have been as close as it was. Remain would have been lucky to garner 20% of the vote IMO.
Juncker and his ilk are very, very dangerous and unsavoury people who make our own politicians look like rank amateurs in terms of doing whatever they want regardless of what the people of the countries they "serve" want. Go and check out many of his speeches and soundbites. If that's what you voted to be part of, I'm very glad you were outvoted.
Sharing intelligence, skills, capabilities etc etc does not have to entail ceding control. But that is not the way of the EU.
Bashing together "weaker" and "stronger" entities does not make everyone "stronger".
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