13yr old killed in F50
Discussion
HTP99 said:
Obviously we don't know all the specifics, however this is one of those scenarios where prison is not going to help anyone; does he need to go to prison, nope, is he a danger to anyone, nope, what exactly will prison do, probably nothing as he just made a mistake, albeit a very bad one that he will have to live with for the rest of his life; all very sad.
Did he kill a child, yes.TooMany2cvs said:
agtlaw said:
...note that a District Judge declined jurisdiction of the case and sent it to the crown court...
This is true, but the judge in question is also quoted as saying he did not believe he personally could try the case fairly, because his own brother had died in a car crash.http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/15374375.Man_appea...
Daily Echo said:
District Judge Philip Gillibrand told him: "I have declined jurisdiction. I am sending this case to Winchester Crown Court where you must attend on July 26 on unconditional bail."
Speaking to Alexander's family, he said: "Can I express my sympathy to you? I lost my brother in a road traffic accident.
"I am afraid I could not face the hearing. I think you are very courageous, I offer my sympathies and also for your future."
Speaking to Alexander's family, he said: "Can I express my sympathy to you? I lost my brother in a road traffic accident.
"I am afraid I could not face the hearing. I think you are very courageous, I offer my sympathies and also for your future."
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Saturday 1st July 13:51
TooMany2cvs said:
agtlaw said:
...note that a District Judge declined jurisdiction of the case and sent it to the crown court...
This is true, but the judge in question is also quoted as saying he did not believe he personally could try the case fairly, because his own brother had died in a car crash.http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/15374375.Man_appea...
Daily Echo said:
District Judge Philip Gillibrand told him: "I have declined jurisdiction. I am sending this case to Winchester Crown Court where you must attend on July 26 on unconditional bail."
Speaking to Alexander's family, he said: "Can I express my sympathy to you? I lost my brother in a road traffic accident.
"I am afraid I could not face the hearing. I think you are very courageous, I offer my sympathies and also for your future."
Speaking to Alexander's family, he said: "Can I express my sympathy to you? I lost my brother in a road traffic accident.
"I am afraid I could not face the hearing. I think you are very courageous, I offer my sympathies and also for your future."
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Saturday 1st July 13:51
He sent it to crown court because his sentencing powers (six months prison) are insufficient. Read TenPenceShort's account of this, as soon as he heard those words he "knew he was going to prison". Same applies here, whilst not a certainty it is extremely likely and I'm sure the defendant knows this.
zarjaz1991 said:
BlackLabel said:
He has a wife and young child - no matter what he feels about the accident I bet he's glad to still be alive. As for topping himself, he's already played a part in destroying the lives of that boy and his family so why cause even more destruction by killing yourself and hurting your loved ones?
Well he's going to be no use to them in prison is he.Edited by BlackLabel on Saturday 1st July 12:39
Which is more final:
A prison sentence ?
Topping yourself ?
He can still be of use to his family when he returns from prison. This is a painful discussion so I will stop now!
Edited: checked your profile and you're the kid with the two Mondeos!
zarjaz1991 said:
BlackLabel said:
He has a wife and young child - no matter what he feels about the accident I bet he's glad to still be alive. As for topping himself, he's already played a part in destroying the lives of that boy and his family so why cause even more destruction by killing yourself and hurting your loved ones?
Well he's going to be no use to them in prison is he.Edited by BlackLabel on Saturday 1st July 12:39
Dr Jekyll said:
....
Scenario 1). Mr Bloggs is driving Auntie Beryl to the shops, skids on a patch of oil he should really have spotted, crashes into an oncoming bus and Auntie Beryl dies. Death by careless driving. Arguably not an accident at all because he should have been more alert but an accident by the normal definition.
Scenario 2). As scenario 1 but the bus isn't there, Mr Bloggs catches the slide and all is well. Careless driving, but do you say that since the fatality was avoided by pure luck it's just as serious as scenario 1?
Scenario 3) Mr Bloggs carelessly leaves his lawnmower blogging the path, Auntie Beryl trips over it and breaks her neck, fatally. Accident? Negligence? If Mr B|oggs goes to jail for scenario 1 why not for this? After all more people die in domestic accidents than road accidents.
Scenario 4) As scenario 3 but Aunty Beryl avoids tripping by pure luck. Different from scenario 2? Why?
(2) Yes, probably. He got away with the end result. Quite possibly would never have been caught. Scenario 1). Mr Bloggs is driving Auntie Beryl to the shops, skids on a patch of oil he should really have spotted, crashes into an oncoming bus and Auntie Beryl dies. Death by careless driving. Arguably not an accident at all because he should have been more alert but an accident by the normal definition.
Scenario 2). As scenario 1 but the bus isn't there, Mr Bloggs catches the slide and all is well. Careless driving, but do you say that since the fatality was avoided by pure luck it's just as serious as scenario 1?
Scenario 3) Mr Bloggs carelessly leaves his lawnmower blogging the path, Auntie Beryl trips over it and breaks her neck, fatally. Accident? Negligence? If Mr B|oggs goes to jail for scenario 1 why not for this? After all more people die in domestic accidents than road accidents.
Scenario 4) As scenario 3 but Aunty Beryl avoids tripping by pure luck. Different from scenario 2? Why?
If you try to murder someone but fail, you don't get done for murder, but attempted murder. Outcomes matter.
(3) I'm assuming you meant "blocking" unless it was a smart mower
But in this instance, no. The mower is a static object at the time of the accident and Aunty Beryl should have watched where she was going. If she'd been snoozing while Mr Bloggs had been mowing the lawn, he'd left the mower unattended but on and it had run her over, killing her....then Mr Bloggs is in trouble.
(4) as (3), not a comparable scenario. Basically 4 is "Aunty Beryl went for a walk and nothing happened". So what
Your scenarios really boil down to what is an "accident". I think it's an over used word. The key thing when driving is that you do so within the limits of your ability, the vehicle's ability and everything you see around you, and where you cannot see things, you anticipate.
I'm no angel. Nor driving God. I've made mistakes and still do. It is arguably good fortune that nothing serious has happened as a result of them. Arguably it could be reasonable risk assessment. Who knows. But if I killed someone as a result of my driving, I think any distinction between was a I being "careless" or "dangerous" is at best splitting hairs. The book should be thrown hard. I'd have destroyed multiple lives in all likelihood, including my own and that of my family. (And I don't hold that that is punishment enough tbh).
Fortunately the world does not have me in charge of sentencing. I'd probably make the Saudis look liberal
HTP99 said:
...is he a danger to anyone, nope, ...
Not sure I entirely agree with your assessment. I hope I'm never in a position where I have to find out, but I wonder how long term the effects on one's driving are after something like this.On track, you don't aim to make the same mistake twice, but after a while I know I've fallen into bad habits again after a while. I'm sure it's possible for the same to happen on the road.
Murph7355 said:
If you try to murder someone but fail, you don't get done for murder, but attempted murder. Outcomes matter.
But equally if you thump someone after a loss of temper and they hit their head on a kerb and die, that tends to be manslaughter, considerably less serious than murder. Intentions matter more.Murph7355 said:
I think any distinction between was a I being "careless" or "dangerous" is at best splitting hairs. The book should be thrown hard. I'd have destroyed multiple lives in all likelihood, including my own and that of my family. (And I don't hold that that is punishment enough tbh).
OK, a real life example.A friend of mine (yes really) who I shall call Mick turned into a narrow lane. A minicab driver in front of him stopped, then reversed without looking. Mick checked behind him but only in his mirrors, he didn't turn his head. It looked clear so he reversed. Unfortunately there was a pedestrian about to cross the road and he walked into the side of Mick's car. No injury but it could have been much worse.
It seems to me that the minicab drivers error (not bothering to check) is greater than Mick's (trying to check but making a hash of it under pressure). But the consequence of Mick's mistake was greater. Does that mean a greater punishment is required?
The difference between knowing something could cause danger but doing it anyway (dangerous driving, or negligence in other fields) and trying your best but making a mistake is far more than just splitting hairs.
TooMany2cvs said:
Outcome affects sentence in far more than just driving offences.
You're in a pub, it all kicks off, and you throw a punch that's not in self defence... Has no offence occurred, or is it simple assault, ABH, GBH, or manslaughter? Depends entirely on the outcome of the punch...
But whether it's section 20 GBH (5 years max) or section 18 (possibly life) depends entirely on the intent, not the result. For section 18 proof of recklessness isn't sufficient.You're in a pub, it all kicks off, and you throw a punch that's not in self defence... Has no offence occurred, or is it simple assault, ABH, GBH, or manslaughter? Depends entirely on the outcome of the punch...
zarjaz1991 said:
I did not read it that way. The district judge is not saying he sent it to crown court because he couldn't face the hearing - that wouldn't be a valid reason anyhow, it would go to another judge at the same court - he is saying that, were he the parents, he would not be able to face the hearing, and admired them for doing so.
He sent it to crown court because his sentencing powers (six months prison) are insufficient. Read TenPenceShort's account of this, as soon as he heard those words he "knew he was going to prison". Same applies here, whilst not a certainty it is extremely likely and I'm sure the defendant knows this.
Or a significant sentence, but suspended?He sent it to crown court because his sentencing powers (six months prison) are insufficient. Read TenPenceShort's account of this, as soon as he heard those words he "knew he was going to prison". Same applies here, whilst not a certainty it is extremely likely and I'm sure the defendant knows this.
limpsfield said:
Maths test.
Which is more final:
A prison sentence ?
Topping yourself ?
He can still be of use to his family when he returns from prison. This is a painful discussion so I will stop now!
Edited: checked your profile and you're the kid with the two Mondeos!
Um, yeah, if being 25 makes me a "kid".Which is more final:
A prison sentence ?
Topping yourself ?
He can still be of use to his family when he returns from prison. This is a painful discussion so I will stop now!
Edited: checked your profile and you're the kid with the two Mondeos!
What of it?
zarjaz1991 said:
Um, yeah, if being 25 makes me a "kid".
What of it?
People aren't going to treat you like an adult when you're spouting utter sWhat of it?
t like suggesting the bloke should kill himself. He made a mistake, he messed up, but how is killing himself going to improve the situation? He has a child of his own, use your brain.limpsfield said:
zarjaz1991 said:
BlackLabel said:
He has a wife and young child - no matter what he feels about the accident I bet he's glad to still be alive. As for topping himself, he's already played a part in destroying the lives of that boy and his family so why cause even more destruction by killing yourself and hurting your loved ones?
Well he's going to be no use to them in prison is he.Edited by BlackLabel on Saturday 1st July 12:39
Which is more final:
A prison sentence ?
Topping yourself ?
He can still be of use to his family when he returns from prison. This is a painful discussion so I will stop now!
Edited: checked your profile and you're the kid with the two brain cells!
Dr Jekyll said:
But equally if you thump someone after a loss of temper and they hit their head on a kerb and die, that tends to be manslaughter, considerably less serious than murder. Intentions matter more.
If the car driver meant to kill it would be murder. We're discussing whether different sentences should be given for a manslaughter charge through driving.
FWIW in anything other than self defence, I think people throwing punches should have long sentences too. Possibly close to or even the same as murder sentences. In throwing one you are meaning to cause serious harm. And you have no idea whether that will end in a fatality. So I'd charge that harder too
Dr Jekyll said:
OK, real life example.
A friend of mine (yes really) who I shall call Mick turned into a narrow lane. A minicab driver in front of him stopped, then reversed without looking. Mick checked behind him but only in his mirrors, he didn't turn his head. It looked clear so he reversed. Unfortunately there was a pedestrian about to cross the road and he walked into the side of Mick's car. No injury but it could have been much worse.
It seems to me that the minicab drivers error (not bothering to check) is greater than Mick's (trying to check but making a hash of it under pressure). But the consequence of Mick's mistake was greater. Does that mean a greater punishment is required?
The difference between knowing something could cause danger but doing it anyway (dangerous driving, or negligence in other fields) and trying your best but making a mistake is far more than just splitting hairs.
In Mick's case, yes. 100% his was worse due to the outcome. A friend of mine (yes really) who I shall call Mick turned into a narrow lane. A minicab driver in front of him stopped, then reversed without looking. Mick checked behind him but only in his mirrors, he didn't turn his head. It looked clear so he reversed. Unfortunately there was a pedestrian about to cross the road and he walked into the side of Mick's car. No injury but it could have been much worse.
It seems to me that the minicab drivers error (not bothering to check) is greater than Mick's (trying to check but making a hash of it under pressure). But the consequence of Mick's mistake was greater. Does that mean a greater punishment is required?
The difference between knowing something could cause danger but doing it anyway (dangerous driving, or negligence in other fields) and trying your best but making a mistake is far more than just splitting hairs.
Yes the cab driver was wrong. But so was Mick. If he'd checked properly he would not have continued, the cabbie would have hit him and the cabbie would have taken the full blame.
If Mick had killed someone it would have been his fault. Not the cabbie's.
This case has gone to crown instead of magistrates due to someone being killed in a motor vehicle accident and the charges that the cps have charged him with will be too serious for the magistrates alone to deal with.
I have been through this myself - it's standard law practice...it also means the defendant will be trialled by jury - something that magistrates can't do.
It doesn't mean he's automatically going to jail - in fact if, like in my case, the jury find him not guilty then he most certainly will be walking out of there at the end as a free man.
If he's found guilty then obviously I would imagine he will get a custodial sentence- there would have to some very compelling reasons not to impose a custodial sentence, perhaps there are some, we won't know until it comes to the trial.
I have been through this myself - it's standard law practice...it also means the defendant will be trialled by jury - something that magistrates can't do.
It doesn't mean he's automatically going to jail - in fact if, like in my case, the jury find him not guilty then he most certainly will be walking out of there at the end as a free man.
If he's found guilty then obviously I would imagine he will get a custodial sentence- there would have to some very compelling reasons not to impose a custodial sentence, perhaps there are some, we won't know until it comes to the trial.
Murph7355 said:
We're discussing whether different sentences should be given for a manslaughter charge through driving.
No we aren't. We are discussing to what extent consequences of an error should affect the sentence for that error. Nobody has said that manslaughter while driving should get a lesser sentence than manslaughter while doing anything else.zarjaz1991 said:
limpsfield said:
He killed a child but I wouldn't see him labelled as a "child killer" by the other lags, to delve deeper into this Strangeways fantasy. I think you are overdoing the hyperbole a bit.
Perhaps. However, I wouldn't want to live with it even without the prison sentence. My time would be well and truly up.I've often wondered how people who cause the deaths of others unintentionally like this actually manage to carry on. I simply couldn't.
"Child killer"! Get a grip.
Mastodon2 said:
People aren't going to treat you like an adult when you're spouting utter st like suggesting the bloke should kill himself. He made a mistake, he messed up, but how is killing himself going to improve the situation? He has a child of his own, use your brain.
Yes, obviously unless I hold an opinion permitted by people in PH I must be just a kid wth two Mondeos.t like suggesting the bloke should kill himself. He made a mistake, he messed up, but how is killing himself going to improve the situation? He has a child of his own, use your brain.It happens that I hold a different opinion. Not everyone could cope with a prison sentence, nor the knowledge that ththe y killed a child. Some may consider that ending their own life would be the best way. Sometimes that feeling is overpowering.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff