More fun and games in Calais

[monamimate]

Oakey said:

Oh sorry, did I offend you? The person who called us the 'laughing stock of the world' and 'idiots'? My apologies.

1. So, your ID card says address A but then you move house to address B, now what? How is your ID card proof of your address now? Perhaps you propose to make it a legal requirement to update your ID card every time you move? How draconian.

2. When applying for your ID card, how do you prove your address for them to put it on the card in the first place? Or do they just take your word for it?

3. What makes an ID card any more special or valid than a photo driving licence?

4. Even if we had ID cards, what makes you think banks, etc wouldn't still require two forms of proof?

Edited by Oakey on Tuesday 25th October 17:49

Oh dear... thanks for demonstrating that you are arguing from assumptions, not facts.

1 Yes, you are required to advise the local authority, who update the chip on your card. Can't see why this would be a problem, as any move requires informing an number of instances of the change, so hardly "draconian". (And the local authority automatically advises tax office, health service, pension service, etc, on your behalf. Pretty efficient, actually. Guess you have to inform them all separately (must be a lot of copies of that gas bill lying around)

2 The police carry out checks. Before you scream "police state", no-one has an issue with this, except those with something to hide. So the system works. Also helps community relations, as one gets to know one's local police force.

3 If there's no difference, why are the Brits making such as fuss that an ID card would represent a loss of freedom. Obtaining an ID card requires a bunch more information (cue: oooh, police state) than a driving licence! Try thinking logically.

4 They don't. In Belgium the ID card suffices, as the information is considered reliable.

[dudleybloke]

12yr old is actually 21!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2030373/migrant-fost...

[monamimate]

don'tbesilly said:

The joke is being lectured by someone who lives in Belgium (according to your profile) about why we need ID cards to stop/discourage illegal immigration.

You might agree with ID cards,it's clear we don't want them, and nor did the coalition Govt of 2010 when the ID cards Act of 2006 was scrapped.

With respect,you can take you card and insert it gently where the sun doesn't shine.

So you don't care to consider the opinion of a Brit (that's me) who has experience of living in the UK, Belgium, Austria and France?

I guess the Daily Mail is a more reliable and objective source.

Thank you for your kind wishes, pity you couldn't resist being vulgar.

[alfie2244]

Do ID cards really make a difference in Belgium?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/europe/belgium-t...

[don'tbesilly]

monamimate said:

don'tbesilly said:

The joke is being lectured by someone who lives in Belgium (according to your profile) about why we need ID cards to stop/discourage illegal immigration.

You might agree with ID cards,it's clear we don't want them, and nor did the coalition Govt of 2010 when the ID cards Act of 2006 was scrapped.

With respect,you can take you card and insert it gently where the sun doesn't shine.

So you don't care to consider the opinion of a Brit (that's me) who has experience of living in the UK, Belgium, Austria and France?

I guess the Daily Mail is a more reliable and objective source.

Thank you for your kind wishes, pity you couldn't resist being vulgar.

I considered your opinion on ID cards many years ago, after consideration I disagree with your opinion on the need for ID cards and don't want one thanks.

The UK Govt also disagreed with your opinion, which surprise, surprise is why we don't have them.

I don't need a media source to influence me either way, so the juvenile dig from someone who is easily offended is a tad hypocritical.

Your a tad precious aren't you!

[Oakey]

monamimate said:

Oh dear... thanks for demonstrating that you are arguing from assumptions, not facts.

1 Yes, you are required to advise the local authority, who update the chip on your card. Can't see why this would be a problem, as any move requires informing an number of instances of the change, so hardly "draconian". (And the local authority automatically advises tax office, health service, pension service, etc, on your behalf. Pretty efficient, actually. Guess you have to inform them all separately (must be a lot of copies of that gas bill lying around)

2 The police carry out checks. Before you scream "police state", no-one has an issue with this, except those with something to hide. So the system works. Also helps community relations, as one gets to know one's local police force.

3 If there's no difference, why are the Brits making such as fuss that an ID card would represent a loss of freedom. Obtaining an ID card requires a bunch more information (cue: oooh, police state) than a driving licence! Try thinking logically.

4 They don't. In Belgium the ID card suffices, as the information is considered reliable.

1. No copies required because you don't need to prove your new address for any of those examples you've given. What happens if you don't advise the local authority?

2. Police checks to confirm your address whenever you move? That seems a good use of resources.

3. Because it's optional, not mandatory?

4. Yes, very reliable; http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-attacks-te...

[230TE]

monamimate said:

You have a very quaint view of life in other countries. And a rather romantic one of Britain, the nation reputed to have the largest number of illegal sweat shops in Northern Europe.

I don't sneer at the UK (I'm British), only at those who hold strong opinions based on incorrect perceptions and selected fragments of facts.

Well, if you don't have to produce your ID card on demand, and don't need it in order to buy food or travel by bus, or any of the other basic stuff that an off-radar illegal immigrant still needs to do, then what good exactly is an ID card in deterring would-be immigrants?

I think I see your problem. You've made it pretty clear in previous posts that you don't have a lot of time for this country or its inhabitants. And fair play to you, you've put your money where your mouth is and emigrated to Belgium, and you don't get any more European than that. And now you have the spectacle of thousands of migrants who have already made it to safety in Europe, turning down France, Italy and even Belgium, and risking their lives jumping onto moving HGVs to try and get to what, in your eyes, is a despicable country inhabited by despicable people. It doesn't make sense, does it?

So you've come up with an explanation that the most obtuse Brussels functionary would be proud of: they are risking their lives because Britain is so backward and medieval that it doesn't have ID cards. The only problem is that your explanation makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Maybe the poor benighted migrants aren't up to speed with the latest thinking in Brussels cafe society, and haven't yet developed the patrician disdain for liberty that is the hallmark of the true Citizen of Europe. Maybe they just want to come to Britain because they regard it as one of the greatest countries in the world. Yeah, I know, being proud of your own country is quaint and old fashioned, to be swept away and replaced by the exciting, progressive post-nationalism, where your loyalty is to whatever country, sorry, EU administrative region, happens to be feeding and housing you at the time. But unlike you, I love this country for all its faults (and I'll admit it has some faults), I'm profoundly grateful to be a British citizen, and actually rather proud that living here is still something that people are prepared to risk their lives for.

God save the Queen.

[monamimate]

230TE said:

Well, if you don't have to produce your ID card on demand, and don't need it in order to buy food or travel by bus, or any of the other basic stuff that an off-radar illegal immigrant still needs to do, then what good exactly is an ID card in deterring would-be immigrants?

I think I see your problem. You've made it pretty clear in previous posts that you don't have a lot of time for this country or its inhabitants. And fair play to you, you've put your money where your mouth is and emigrated to Belgium, and you don't get any more European than that. And now you have the spectacle of thousands of migrants who have already made it to safety in Europe, turning down France, Italy and even Belgium, and risking their lives jumping onto moving HGVs to try and get to what, in your eyes, is a despicable country inhabited by despicable people. It doesn't make sense, does it?

So you've come up with an explanation that the most obtuse Brussels functionary would be proud of: they are risking their lives because Britain is so backward and medieval that it doesn't have ID cards. The only problem is that your explanation makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Maybe the poor benighted migrants aren't up to speed with the latest thinking in Brussels cafe society, and haven't yet developed the patrician disdain for liberty that is the hallmark of the true Citizen of Europe. Maybe they just want to come to Britain because they regard it as one of the greatest countries in the world. Yeah, I know, being proud of your own country is quaint and old fashioned, to be swept away and replaced by the exciting, progressive post-nationalism, where your loyalty is to whatever country, sorry, EU administrative region, happens to be feeding and housing you at the time. But unlike you, I love this country for all its faults (and I'll admit it has some faults), I'm profoundly grateful to be a British citizen, and actually rather proud that living here is still something that people are prepared to risk their lives for.

God save the Queen.

Oh, do stop being so over-sensitive!

I disagree with the point of view of some people on this forum, and suddenly I'm accused of finding Britain despicable? Get a hold, man! If you're not man enough to soak up some remarks that you don't agree with, go join a knitting club, and don't come whining on a discussion thread.

I love the UK, its heritage, culture and its history, which i why I am so angry that its reputation on the world is beng sullied by insular people who don't seem to have accepted the passing of the Empire.

You criticise my (simplified) assessment that a lack of identity control lies at the heart of the popularity of UK as a destination for refugees/ immigrants. But what do you offer as an explanation in the place? That the UK is a jolly, fair-play place full of decent chaps where life will be so much better than in Continental Europe? One of the greatest countries in the world (really? compared to other western countries???). Have you ever been outside the UK? How can an intelligent person make such a naive statement?

I've yet to read anything in this thread that explains realistically why so "many" immigrants want to come to UK (as I said above the numbers are actually quite small, but blown ut of proportion because of the jungle in Calais). All I've read is a romantic out-of-date image of Britain as some kind of charming paradise.

I'd love to read a more convincing argument. I'm open to (realistic) ideas.

And yes, God Save the Queen. Lord knows she needs it, with citizens like you!

[poo at Paul's]

dudleybloke said:

12yr old is actually 21!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2030373/migrant-fost...

"But she became suspicious when she noticed how hairy he was, and how adept he was at firing a rifle"

[irocfan]

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

a sad day when RT has a better and more honest assessment of the current (appalling) state of affairs

[irocfan]

monamimate said:

Oakey said:

Digga said:

Clearly he hasn't opened a bank account in the UK in recent years.

It's as if the concept of needing to prove where you live at that particular moment in time is completely lost on him.

No, what's lost on me is the British stubbornness in continuing to refuse ID cards, as if they would somehow "take away their freedom".

What a joke!

The Brits are the only ones without ID cards, I believe, and no other EU country ever complains about having them, on the contrary.

They protect and assist the law abiding and make life more difficult fro the less desirable.



By the way,over here, we don't need an old bill to prove where we live, it's on the ID card. But you go ahead with your wads of crumpled papers, happily believing that makes you "free" !

oh, great another sneering expat. Tell you what please feel free to stay out on the mainland - meanwhile I'll be reasonably happy in my adopted homeland. FYI a major pull (if not THE major pull) is the language. Yes the black economy is also a draw as is the lack of serious (French style) racism - next you'll be telling us that there is no black-economy anywhere in the EU....

[jshell]

I don't think monamimate has realised that the main reason for fighting UK ID cards was the plan behind them. Had they simply been a driving licence style card with a picture and basic details, then no-one would have cared too much.

But, they were so-called biometric ID cards and were intended to be linked to central databases of NHS, DHSS and more. They would have been a 'key' to swathes of data on teh individual and for that reason right-minded people said: feck orf!

[poo at Paul's]

jshell said:

I don't think monamimate has realised that the main reason for fighting UK ID cards was the plan behind them. Had they simply been a driving licence style card with a picture and basic details, then no-one would have cared too much.

But, they were so-called biometric ID cards and were intended to be linked to central databases of NHS, DHSS and more. They would have been a 'key' to swathes of data on teh individual and for that reason right-minded people said: feck orf!

I think that is a fair assessment. And also of course there were several cases of Govt departments losing data, missing data keys, laptops etc. And of course, no one lost their jobs, or was held accountable for it, "lessons will be learned" we heard, yerigght!

[monamimate]

irocfan said:

oh, great another sneering expat. Tell you what please feel free to stay out on the mainland - meanwhile I'll be reasonably happy in my adopted homeland. FYI a major pull (if not THE major pull) is the language. Yes the black economy is also a draw as is the lack of serious (French style) racism - next you'll be telling us that there is no black-economy anywhere in the EU....

Thanks, I'm a big boy. Don't need your approval to do anything.

The rest of your post is so self-evident, I'm not sure why you bothered.

(Although your point about lack of racism is hard to support based on the contents of this thread)

[irocfan]

monamimate said:

Thanks, I'm a big boy. Don't need your approval to do anything.

The rest of your post is so self-evident, I'm not sure why you bothered.

(Although your point about lack of racism is hard to support based on the contents of this thread)

learn to read dear boy - I said a lack of serious racism, not a lack of racism. It may shock you but regrettably there are racists over here but on the whole we are a very tolerant and accepting society (witness countless influxes of refugees from europe over the centuries)

[230TE]

monamimate said:

I love the UK, its heritage, culture and its history

I'm glad to hear that, but the tone of some of your posts suggests otherwise. For example:

monamimate said:

Reading this thread re-assures me that I made the right decision to leave the UK...

Maybe it's just the people you can't stand Or there's the "Britain has become a laughing stock" stuff - admittedly it can be hard to convey subtle nuances of tone on the Internet, but that one, taken in conjunction with some of your responses to other posters, did sound a bit gleeful.

You see, I'm getting just a tiny bit bored with smug middle class wrs who think that running down their country - my country - in public makes them look clever and sophisticated. That stuff didn't start on 23rd June - we've had thirty or more years of being told how dreadfully backward and primitive Britain is compared to the wonderful, progressive, caring, sharing, multi-cultural "Europeans" - but the volume of noise from these idiots has become rather greater since the referendum. If we could do a one for one swap for them with Jungle inhabitants I think the country would possibly be better off.

Maybe your posts didn't come across the way you intended, and you don't fit the smug middle class wr profile; but if you can't see any reason why people would want to come half way round the world and live in Britain apart from "ID cards" then I'm not sure you ever really "got" this country.

[monamimate]

230TE said:

monamimate said:

I love the UK, its heritage, culture and its history

I'm glad to hear that, but the tone of some of your posts suggests otherwise. For example:

monamimate said:

Reading this thread re-assures me that I made the right decision to leave the UK...

Maybe it's just the people you can't stand Or there's the "Britain has become a laughing stock" stuff - admittedly it can be hard to convey subtle nuances of tone on the Internet, but that one, taken in conjunction with some of your responses to other posters, did sound a bit gleeful.

You see, I'm getting just a tiny bit bored with smug middle class wrs who think that running down their country - my country - in public makes them look clever and sophisticated. That stuff didn't start on 23rd June - we've had thirty or more years of being told how dreadfully backward and primitive Britain is compared to the wonderful, progressive, caring, sharing, multi-cultural "Europeans" - but the volume of noise from these idiots has become rather greater since the referendum. If we could do a one for one swap for them with Jungle inhabitants I think the country would possibly be better off.

Maybe your posts didn't come across the way you intended, and you don't fit the smug middle class wr profile; but if you can't see any reason why people would want to come half way round the world and live in Britain apart from "ID cards" then I'm not sure you ever really "got" this country.

In the 20 or more years since I left the UK, the way mainland Europeans talk about the UK seems to have changed dramatically. Then, the UK indeed still had the image of a tolerant, reliable and welcoming society. Today, the UK perspective of the EU is one that imposes rules while taking a great deal of money from the UK. From the mainland, the perspective is of a UK that always wanted to be treated specially (e.g. keeping the pound (a good decision as it turned out)) while happy to benefit from all the advantages. It also hasn't helped that English football hooligans always hit the headlines (rightly or wrongly) and that many European holiday resorts are overrun by hordes of drunken Brits. I cannot tell you the number f times I've had to explain that these drunks are not typical of all Brits, but the bad image remains.

Perspective is an important issue here.

Quite clearly, the fact that English is spoken in the UK is a major draw for immigrants. But that is as far as I am prepared to go.

The UK is NOT attracting huge numbers of immigrants. Most have gone to other countries such as Germany or Austria. The disaster that is the Jungle in Calais has given the impression that the UK is the prime destination, but it's not so if you look at the raw numbers. Calais gets a lot of airtime as it is a dramatic but specific situation, totally unrepresentative of the current overall migration currents.

My concern with this thread is the ferocity with which assumptions and misconceptions are translated into fact, and generalisations about the refugees in Calais result in frankly frightening xenophobic comments.

I may not be very good at it, but I'm just trying to present a different point of view to challenge many of the assumptions here. I sometimes use strong language because I'm frustrated by what I read here and feel strongly that these points of view exaggerate the problem and do not cast the British in the best light.

[monamimate]

irocfan said:

monamimate said:

Thanks, I'm a big boy. Don't need your approval to do anything.

The rest of your post is so self-evident, I'm not sure why you bothered.

(Although your point about lack of racism is hard to support based on the contents of this thread)

learn to read dear boy - I said a lack of serious racism, not a lack of racism. It may shock you but regrettably there are racists over here but on the whole we are a very tolerant and accepting society (witness countless influxes of refugees from europe over the centuries)

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

[s2art]

monamimate said:

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

Of course it is. Primarily racism that is acted upon is not good, racism which is personally suppressed and not acted upon is OK. We have no desire to make windows into mens souls.

[Cobnapint]

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

I saw the letters R and T and thought what a load of cobblers that'll be.

I was wrong. Excellent piece.

Now all we have to do is find out why the BBC and Amber Rudd are spinning us a line.