More fun and games in Calais

[CrutyRammers]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

You haven't been able to open a (first) bank account in the UK without a passport or photo driving licence for quite a number of years. Since around 1994 in fact.

Point of order, that's totally not true, banks accept a number of different forms of ID. AUIU, they were obliged to offer current accounts to everyone by the government (since many employers require a bank account for wages), and not everyone drives or has a passport.

[230TE]

monamimate said:

In the 20 or more years since I left the UK, the way mainland Europeans talk about the UK seems to have changed dramatically. Then, the UK indeed still had the image of a tolerant, reliable and welcoming society. Today, the UK perspective of the EU is one that imposes rules while taking a great deal of money from the UK. From the mainland, the perspective is of a UK that always wanted to be treated specially (e.g. keeping the pound (a good decision as it turned out)) while happy to benefit from all the advantages. It also hasn't helped that English football hooligans always hit the headlines (rightly or wrongly) and that many European holiday resorts are overrun by hordes of drunken Brits. I cannot tell you the number f times I've had to explain that these drunks are not typical of all Brits, but the bad image remains.

Perspective is an important issue here.

Quite clearly, the fact that English is spoken in the UK is a major draw for immigrants. But that is as far as I am prepared to go.

The UK is NOT attracting huge numbers of immigrants. Most have gone to other countries such as Germany or Austria. The disaster that is the Jungle in Calais has given the impression that the UK is the prime destination, but it's not so if you look at the raw numbers. Calais gets a lot of airtime as it is a dramatic but specific situation, totally unrepresentative of the current overall migration currents.

My concern with this thread is the ferocity with which assumptions and misconceptions are translated into fact, and generalisations about the refugees in Calais result in frankly frightening xenophobic comments.

I may not be very good at it, but I'm just trying to present a different point of view to challenge many of the assumptions here. I sometimes use strong language because I'm frustrated by what I read here and feel strongly that these points of view exaggerate the problem and do not cast the British in the best light.

Thank you for that. I think we can agree on a couple of things. (1) The British are not good at handling alcohol. (Maybe it's a genetically inherited problem, you can get odd things like that cropping up in island populations.) (2) We have always been the odd one out in the EU, although I believe we have mostly done that with good intentions i.e. trying to stop it degenerating into a Leftist, protectionist, technocratic conspiracy against the voters that costs them a fortune, this being the Delors / Prodi / Barroso / Juncker model for all our futures. We may have been pissing in the wind here, with hindsight. I can see how the European equivalent of our own ardent Remainers might be a bit cross with us, but that's not an attitude I have detected in any of my friends and acquaintances in various European countries.

I'd also agree that the numbers of migrants coming in via the European mainland are not huge. The English Channel will act as a major deterrent, as will the fact that it's a very, very long way from the Northern Med shoreline to Calais - too far to travel if you have family with you and no money. So most of what we get are young men with an under-developed sense of personal safety who are prepared to jump onto a moving HGV and hope it's going to Northern France, not Novosibirsk. But if we change policy as some people wish, and start opening up the country to people who have no statutory right to come here, I think the situation could change very rapidly. Look how many Poles moved here for a fairly small increase in pay. Now imagine what happens if you wave the same opportunity in front of English-speaking people from around the world who are trying to get by on a couple of dollars a day. No borders? No thanks.

[Guybrush]

irocfan said:

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

a sad day when RT has a better and more honest assessment of the current (appalling) state of affairs

Hell, that's a good article. RT often has a clearer assessment of things; quite often a breath of fresh air from our lefty brainwashing from BBC, Sky news, Guardian, 'Independent'. They seem to say what most people I know have figured out.

[Digga]

poo at Paul's said:

jshell said:

I don't think monamimate has realised that the main reason for fighting UK ID cards was the plan behind them. Had they simply been a driving licence style card with a picture and basic details, then no-one would have cared too much.

But, they were so-called biometric ID cards and were intended to be linked to central databases of NHS, DHSS and more. They would have been a 'key' to swathes of data on teh individual and for that reason right-minded people said: feck orf!

I think that is a fair assessment. And also of course there were several cases of Govt departments losing data, missing data keys, laptops etc. And of course, no one lost their jobs, or was held accountable for it, "lessons will be learned" we heard, yerigght!

There were even DVDs full of data left on ****ing trains FFS. As you say, it was as much [i[that[/i] as the principle of ID cards that set the people dead against them.

Guybrush said:

irocfan said:

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

a sad day when RT has a better and more honest assessment of the current (appalling) state of affairs

Hell, that's a good article. RT often has a clearer assessment of things; quite often a breath of fresh air from our lefty brainwashing from BBC, Sky news, Guardian, 'Independent'. They seem to say what most people I know have figured out.

I've seen a number of pieces on Rt that make the BBC look like a cheap propaganda machine for rent. Perhaps the most alarming piece was a few years back with their coverage (and, TBF Al Jazeera too) on the incident where police opened fire on striking mines in S. Africa. The BBC point blank omittted the information that on the previous day the miners had attacked and seriously injured police with machetes.

[poo at Paul's]

irocfan said:

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

a sad day when RT has a better and more honest assessment of the current (appalling) state of affairs

That's very difficult to argue against and spells out what is so riling about this to the vast majority of rational UK residents.

[Goaty Bill 2]

CrutyRammers said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

You haven't been able to open a (first) bank account in the UK without a passport or photo driving licence for quite a number of years. Since around 1994 in fact.

Point of order, that's totally not true, banks accept a number of different forms of ID. AUIU, they were obliged to offer current accounts to everyone by the government (since many employers require a bank account for wages), and not everyone drives or has a passport.

You are of course quite right. I should have said "without great difficulty".
The practice it is often quite different from the regulations.
I was told, with absolute certainty, by Barclays that I would be required to supply a current 10 year passport in order to open an account. (my passport was at the time expired, hence the question)

Some banks will accept a "national identity card", but have also been known to reject a Citizen Card.
Some googling will show that people still have difficulty with banks over this.

[irocfan]

s2art said:

monamimate said:

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

Of course it is. Primarily racism that is acted upon is not good, racism which is personally suppressed and not acted upon is OK. We have no desire to make windows into mens souls.

thank you for pointing this out to our ex-resident manchild. I'll put it in a little more extreme example:

KKK lynching of black people in the 50's and 60's was abhorrent beyond belief
Someone not giving a person a job because they are BAME is also abhorrent but better than above
Some chav calling an immigrant a 'wog' is still abhorrent but on balance it is better than the previous 2 examples

so there we have 3 distinct and different types of racism. Please note dear boy that I didn't say that some racism was 'ok' (it isn't, no matter what direction it comes from) I said some was serious and some less serious

[paulrockliffe]

poo at Paul's said:

jshell said:

I don't think monamimate has realised that the main reason for fighting UK ID cards was the plan behind them. Had they simply been a driving licence style card with a picture and basic details, then no-one would have cared too much.

But, they were so-called biometric ID cards and were intended to be linked to central databases of NHS, DHSS and more. They would have been a 'key' to swathes of data on teh individual and for that reason right-minded people said: feck orf!

I think that is a fair assessment. And also of course there were several cases of Govt departments losing data, missing data keys, laptops etc. And of course, no one lost their jobs, or was held accountable for it, "lessons will be learned" we heard, yerigght!

There's some truth in that, but the reality is that instead of the ID cards the Government spends a small fortune on data analysts to link all that information together anyway. It just happens to be incredibly inefficient and expensive compared with an ID based approach.

The result of that is that the Government doesn't use the data for the things that are useful to the individual because they're too expensive, but it does do the things that are useful for Government. So you can't pop your ID card into a reader at the Doctors and have your medical history pop up for the Doctor, but all that data linking you didn't want is happening anyway.

[anonymous-user]

So to get back on track it seems that some child migrants are not and that some people have been taken for a ride, is that about right ?

BUT think on this if we took say 300 in and only 200 of them were found not to be children. Of those 200 only 10 turned out to have anti British sentiments wouldn't we have been right to try it ?

Play around with the figures and see at what percentage threshold you think it becomes ok

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 26th October 13:03

[monamimate]

irocfan said:

s2art said:

monamimate said:

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

Of course it is. Primarily racism that is acted upon is not good, racism which is personally suppressed and not acted upon is OK. We have no desire to make windows into mens souls.

thank you for pointing this out to our ex-resident manchild. I'll put it in a little more extreme example:

KKK lynching of black people in the 50's and 60's was abhorrent beyond belief
Someone not giving a person a job because they are BAME is also abhorrent but better than above
Some chav calling an immigrant a 'wog' is still abhorrent but on balance it is better than the previous 2 examples

so there we have 3 distinct and different types of racism. Please note dear boy that I didn't say that some racism was 'ok' (it isn't, no matter what direction it comes from) I said some was serious and some less serious

Because there are examples of what you call serious racism on mainland Europe? Is the KKK active in Belgium, France etc, or all those other countries which you consider inferior to the UK? On the basis of your description, there is NO difference in the racism in the UK or other European countries, so what was your argument?

So what did you mean by "serious French-style racism"? Have they been lynching people?

Logical thinking really ain't your thing, is it?

Insults and condescension, however, seem second nature to you. You sound quite charming.

[Goaty Bill 2]

poo at Paul's said:

irocfan said:

untakenname said:

RT has quite an interesting article about the Calais situation, probably why our government is now trying to shut RT down https://www.rt.com/op-edge/363803-uks-immigration-...

a sad day when RT has a better and more honest assessment of the current (appalling) state of affairs

That's very difficult to argue against and spells out what is so riling about this to the vast majority of rational UK residents.

My trust in the BBC to provide unbiased reporting died and was buried without honour during the Libyan conflict.
It was clear they had become nothing more (or less) than the mouthpiece of government policy. Shame on you.
I would much more likely believe Al Jazeera, and perhaps now even RT, to provide accurate (and certainly in the case of Al Jazeera more unbiased) reporting than our mainstream media.

I haven't seen it posted here so far, the 'other Hitchens brother' has also had something to say about it.

Yes, he has his moments also.

[Smiler.]

monamimate said:

Logical thinking really ain't your thing, is it?

in the next breath

monamimate said:

Insults and condescension, however, seem second nature to you. You sound quite charming.

Reading your posts mate..........bit of a fail methinks

[irocfan]

monamimate said:

irocfan said:

s2art said:

monamimate said:

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

Of course it is. Primarily racism that is acted upon is not good, racism which is personally suppressed and not acted upon is OK. We have no desire to make windows into mens souls.

thank you for pointing this out to our ex-resident manchild. I'll put it in a little more extreme example:

KKK lynching of black people in the 50's and 60's was abhorrent beyond belief
Someone not giving a person a job because they are BAME is also abhorrent but better than above
Some chav calling an immigrant a 'wog' is still abhorrent but on balance it is better than the previous 2 examples

so there we have 3 distinct and different types of racism. Please note dear boy that I didn't say that some racism was 'ok' (it isn't, no matter what direction it comes from) I said some was serious and some less serious

Because there are examples of what you call serious racism on mainland Europe? Is the KKK active in Belgium, France etc, or all those other countries which you consider inferior to the UK? On the basis of your description, there is NO difference in the racism in the UK or other European countries, so what was your argument?

So what did you mean by "serious French-style racism"? Have they been lynching people?

Logical thinking really ain't your thing, is it?

Insults and condescension, however, seem second nature to you. You sound quite charming.

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

[B'stard Child]

irocfan said:

monamimate said:

irocfan said:

s2art said:

monamimate said:

The irony: differentiating between racism and serious racism... that's like suggesting that some racism is ok but others not. Wow.

Of course it is. Primarily racism that is acted upon is not good, racism which is personally suppressed and not acted upon is OK. We have no desire to make windows into mens souls.

thank you for pointing this out to our ex-resident manchild. I'll put it in a little more extreme example:

KKK lynching of black people in the 50's and 60's was abhorrent beyond belief
Someone not giving a person a job because they are BAME is also abhorrent but better than above
Some chav calling an immigrant a 'wog' is still abhorrent but on balance it is better than the previous 2 examples

so there we have 3 distinct and different types of racism. Please note dear boy that I didn't say that some racism was 'ok' (it isn't, no matter what direction it comes from) I said some was serious and some less serious

Because there are examples of what you call serious racism on mainland Europe? Is the KKK active in Belgium, France etc, or all those other countries which you consider inferior to the UK? On the basis of your description, there is NO difference in the racism in the UK or other European countries, so what was your argument?

So what did you mean by "serious French-style racism"? Have they been lynching people?

Logical thinking really ain't your thing, is it?

Insults and condescension, however, seem second nature to you. You sound quite charming.

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

11/10

[superlightr]

irocfan said:

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

suckling at the tit of the EU.

[monamimate]

irocfan said:

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

Gosh, I'm so impressed by your insults.

How old are you, that you can spend so much time being deliberately obnoxious?

I'm sure you think you're quite the lad. For my part, it depresses me to think that the country I cherish harbours ill-informed self-righteous xenophobes trying to justify their selfish desire to refuse asylum to those less fortunate.


Bet you've got shelves full of conspiracy theories "proving" that you're not the naive one... I stand in awe of you.

I guess you'll have another scathing reply, but I hope I will have the strength to ignore it as the tedium is getting to me.

[superlightr]

monamimate said:

For my part, it depresses me to think that the country I cherish harbours ill-informed self-righteous xenophobes trying to justify their selfish desire to refuse asylum to those less fortunate.

And those of us that are informed and not self-righteous xenophobe but still want to have restrictions on who we grant asylum to - I hope we don't make you depressed as well?

[WinstonWolf]

monamimate said:

irocfan said:

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

Gosh, I'm so impressed by your insults.

How old are you, that you can spend so much time being deliberately obnoxious?

I'm sure you think you're quite the lad. For my part, it depresses me to think that the country I cherish harbours ill-informed self-righteous xenophobes trying to justify their selfish desire to refuse asylum to those less fortunate.


Bet you've got shelves full of conspiracy theories "proving" that you're not the naive one... I stand in awe of you.

I guess you'll have another scathing reply, but I hope I will have the strength to ignore it as the tedium is getting to me.

All the 'refugees ' in Calais can claim asylum in the safe country they're already in.

[irocfan]

monamimate said:

irocfan said:

now, now dear boy. A little condescending I may well have been - insulting though? Calling you a manchild is hardly insulting - had I wanted to be insulting I might have considered something along the lines of "supercilious, condescending, little prick" or "a complete cumgobbling who needs to pull his head out of his fking arse and stop being such a knob jockey" or even "a dumb mother...." ah you get the idea I suspect. Anyone of those would be insulting but I decided that that wasn't the way to go hence a polite 'manchild' to indicate a level of naivety without being rude. As for charming and condescending though - might I respectfully suggest you go through some of your previous posts for examples of both?

French style racism - my understanding is that the Algerians, particular, have not been particularly well integrated into French society (try https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec... or indeed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_19... look at the various full scale riots over the last 10 or so years in France (during which time we've also had riots for sure). Look at the fun and games in some of the Belgian ghettos, look at how 'conservative' many German villages are WRT to outsiders (note that's outsiders not even people of a different colour)... so yes there is racism in this country (as much as we all wish there wasn't) but I'm not convinced it's on the same scale.

Now obviously you being a fan/employee of the EU will doubtless try and gloss over all this and accuse the Brits of all manner of stuff, feel free but the fact remains that a lot of us are able to look at what's wrong in our society/politics and try and change it people like you suckling at the tit of the EU? Less so

Gosh, I'm so impressed by your insults.

How old are you, that you can spend so much time being deliberately obnoxious?

I'm sure you think you're quite the lad. For my part, it depresses me to think that the country I cherish harbours ill-informed self-righteous xenophobes trying to justify their selfish desire to refuse asylum to those less fortunate.


Bet you've got shelves full of conspiracy theories "proving" that you're not the naive one... I stand in awe of you.

I guess you'll have another scathing reply, but I hope I will have the strength to ignore it as the tedium is getting to me.

A tedium entirely of your own making. Who mentioned conspiracy theories dear boy? For your delight and delectation I'd also add that far from being xenophobic I'm all for inclusively -:given my multiracial and multinational background I could hardly be anything else. I too have the fervent desire that your strength holds out & you'll be able to restrain yourself from any further pithy and condescending responses when to the majority it is patently obvious you are a deluded fool. You may ask yourself why a fool deserves any response... well when in Rome as the saying goes I believe it is in the English nature to try and educate no matter the hopelessness of the case (in case you were not sufficiently aware dear boy, you are the afforestation referenced hopeless case. Toodle pip )

[poo at Paul's]

WinstonWolf said:

All the 'refugees ' in Calais can claim asylum in the safe country they're already in.

Likewise the ones in Greece.