This feels very wrong, police action
Discussion
AJS- said:
So can someone enlighten me? What exactly puts Tommy Robinson in the same category as Anjem Choudary? Choudary supports ISIS and wants to overthrow the British government to replace it with an Islamist government and shariah law. He used his public platform to promote this.
I thought the original post was pretty clear on that:Elysium said:
He is an extremist. He is also rather like Anjem Choudary - provocative, but always careful to remain just on the right side of the law
And since you mention it, through his actions and political affiliations it's pretty clear that Robinson supports a similarly idealistic monoculture as Choudary. When you get down to it the aims and methods aren't that far apart - a demonisation of those who are 'different' with the intention of imposing whatever their ideal view of government is. Sure, Choudary's rhetoric and affiliations are by some margin more odious and extreme even than Robinson's, but then that's why Choudary is in jail and Robinson has merely been banned from watching some sport.Edited by deckster on Tuesday 30th August 20:12
AJS- said:
Elysium said:
Now imagine someone in Saudi Arabia putting together such a list of crimes by only Christian people, with the sole purpose of conflating their actions, with the principles of the Christian religion.
This is not totalitarianism. He has brought this on himself, deliberately sought it out in fact, so that he can fuel his crusade with indignation.
I would be interested to see this catalogue of crimes committed by Christians and how it relates to their religion. This is not totalitarianism. He has brought this on himself, deliberately sought it out in fact, so that he can fuel his crusade with indignation.
It could cite the scores of deadly terror attacks committed daily by Christians shouting "Jesus saves." Or the systematic violent persecution of women and minorities living in majority Christian countries and show how this follows the example set by Jesus. Oflr the fundamentalist Christian groups who use brutality every bit as vile as ISIS to bring about a global Christian government ready for the end times.
At least it could if any of these things existed.
Why do you feel these crimes are unrelated to the religion?
Tommy Robinson recognises that Islam has a problem and is a problem. He hasn't and doesn't always express this in the most palatable way and he is not squeaky clean himself. I don't know of anything racist that he has ever said but even if he has it doesn't mean he is wrong about Islam. I can't guarantee that he is not a habitual hooligan who causes trouble everywhere he goes as a matter of course but then if he was I would think it would be easy enough and more effective to give him an appropriate sentence for this than arbitrarily running him out of town.
As for the authorities attitude to discussing this problem, the American academic Robert Spencer discusses it very eloquently and without saying innit once. He was refused entry to the UK by Theresa May when she was Home Secretary. Dutch politician Geert Wilders was also refused entry and actually deported in 2009. Though this was later overturned.
So yes I believe they would rather t simply wasn't discussed, and will go to great lengths to attempt to stop it.
What about the IRA? Or the systematic cover up of child abuse by the Catholic Church and the Church of England?
What about the mass child graves at Magdalene Laundries?
What about Uganda or the genocide in Rwanda?
Drug wars in Mexico, shootings in the USA?
All issues cause by people who may have a religion, but not caused BY that religion.
There is a problem with Islam, but it is more cultural than religious. It was at one time a great power, both economically and scientifically. At the moment it is being dragged down by people who want to live the sort of brutal existence last seen in the Middle Ages. Christianity has had similar dark times, during the Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, murderous popes and more recently the child abuse scandals mentioned above.
Tommy Robinson is not trying to promote a grown up debate about Islam. He is simply stirring discontent by drawing attention to the worst actions he can find that could be in some way linked to one particular religion. I guess this is a narrowing of his racism toward a single ethnic group. Perhaps the one that he resented the most in his formative years.
AJS- said:
In what sense is he an extremist? Extremely what?
What does his idealistic monoculture look like? Has he outlined it anywhere or referenced any template for it?
I genuinely don't see it.
Have you ever been to or near an EDL rally? Met any people who have? Hung out with any Britain First or Pergoda types. I support your right to hobby horse around these forums on some supposed stallion of logic and reason to espouse your critical thinking, but trust me - the sorts who would gather around Tommy Robinson in a boozer would give less than two sWhat does his idealistic monoculture look like? Has he outlined it anywhere or referenced any template for it?
I genuinely don't see it.
ts for your trollery drollery once the beer was flowing.What's the point of this thread and your supposed non support but actual support of Tommy Robinson? What it boils down to is one towns bobbies didn't want some rabble rousing toss pot holding court and possibly causing a commotion in their town so they moved him on using the legal powers at their disposal. Its really no more complicated than that.
FredClogs said:
What it boils down to is one towns bobbies didn't want some rabble rousing toss pot holding court and possibly causing a commotion in their town so they moved him on using the legal powers at their disposal. Its really no more complicated than that.
The question is whether it was legal, whether it was proportionate & whether it was in the public interest.If it was all three then I support it; if not then there are issues to be addressed.
The purpose of this thread is to debate the actions of those involved.
If not quite a monopoly one religion certainly has an extraordinary market share, but this thread isn't about Islam or other religions.
In stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
In stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
FredClogs said:
Have you ever been to or near an EDL rally? Met any people who have? Hung out with any Britain First or Pergoda types. I support your right to hobby horse around these forums on some supposed stallion of logic and reason to espouse your critical thinking, but trust me - the sorts who would gather around Tommy Robinson in a boozer would give less than two sts for your trollery drollery once the beer was flowing.
What's the point of this thread and your supposed non support but actual support of Tommy Robinson? What it boils down to is one towns bobbies didn't want some rabble rousing toss pot holding court and possibly causing a commotion in their town so they moved him on using the legal powers at their disposal. Its really no more complicated than that.
The only people causing a commotion were the police, the pub staff said he was no problem and I doubt he was about to kick off with wife and kids in towts for your trollery drollery once the beer was flowing.What's the point of this thread and your supposed non support but actual support of Tommy Robinson? What it boils down to is one towns bobbies didn't want some rabble rousing toss pot holding court and possibly causing a commotion in their town so they moved him on using the legal powers at their disposal. Its really no more complicated than that.
AJS- said:
If not quite a monopoly one religion certainly has an extraordinary market share, but this thread isn't about Islam or other religions.
In stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
How are the authorities "stifling grown up debate about Islam"?In stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
Elysium said:
?
What about Uganda or the genocide in Rwanda?
Drug wars in Mexico, shootings in the USA?
All issues cause by people who may have a religion, but not caused BY that religion.
TBH I thought that the whole Rwandan issue was tribal rather than religious and as for the Mexican cartels surely that's $$$ driven and nothing to do with any religion?What about Uganda or the genocide in Rwanda?
Drug wars in Mexico, shootings in the USA?
All issues cause by people who may have a religion, but not caused BY that religion.
Rovinghawk said:
The whole thing reminds me of an episode of The Professionals:
http://www.mark-1.co.uk/Professionals/b05.htm
Reading the synopsis of the episode I came across this very appropriate snippet from the script: http://www.mark-1.co.uk/Professionals/b05.htm
Detective Sergeant Reed: "Did you get the authority you wanted?"
Chives: "Green's leaving it to me - that's all the authority I need."
Reed: "Courts will be full on Monday, then!"
Chives: "Only if we charge them. Be a waste of public funds. No, we'll pull in the trouble-makers, maybe give them a 'talking to' while they're in the cells... and then in the early hours of the morning we'll them take way outside the city and release them. Long after the last train has gone. It will be cold and, if we're lucky, raining, too."
La Liga said:
don4l said:
Some of us are surprised that the Police can force someone to leave a town without judicial oversight. That is not how justice should operate.
Why would that be a surprise? Nearly every police action (application of the law) doesn't have judicial oversight prior to or at the time of the action being taken. There is a very good reason for this.
I'm not saying that I think that the police cannot be trusted to have good judgement. However, in every profession there are some bad apples. This is why we have checks and balances. This is why a jury consists of 12 people, and not just one.
I do not believe that Police should have the power to tell me to leave a city unless I am actually doing something wrong.
Fred
Never been to an EDL rally or knowingly engaged with their supporters. I met an apostate of Indian background who went to a PEGIDA March. Clearly a roaring racist because he didn't have a good word to say about Islam, despite having been brought up in the midst of all its love and tolerance. His family wanted to kill him.
My point is that I suspect certain parts of the authorities wish to stifle discussion of Islam and will use any means at their disposal to do that. I don't think this is healthy for a democratic country.
Alpinestars
Not really no. I think their language and behaviour are repellant and have done a lot of damage to a worthwhile cause. I'm sure many or even most of their members are yobs looking for a fight. But as I think you have gathered by now I do believe Islam is a violent and destructive religion which demands endless conflict with non-Muslims and a horrible way of life imposed on everyone including Muslims. It is tolerable precisely to the degree to which it is not followed, and the world would be a better place if Muhammed had gone through with his suicide attempts.
The success of the EDL and of Tommy Robinson is a direct result of the whole question of violent Islamism being pushed outside the boundaries of respectable discourse by people screaming racist.
I do have a degree of admiration for Tommy Robinson because from this fairly shabby start he has developed into someone who can make his point quite ably and intelligently.
Never been to an EDL rally or knowingly engaged with their supporters. I met an apostate of Indian background who went to a PEGIDA March. Clearly a roaring racist because he didn't have a good word to say about Islam, despite having been brought up in the midst of all its love and tolerance. His family wanted to kill him.
My point is that I suspect certain parts of the authorities wish to stifle discussion of Islam and will use any means at their disposal to do that. I don't think this is healthy for a democratic country.
Alpinestars
Not really no. I think their language and behaviour are repellant and have done a lot of damage to a worthwhile cause. I'm sure many or even most of their members are yobs looking for a fight. But as I think you have gathered by now I do believe Islam is a violent and destructive religion which demands endless conflict with non-Muslims and a horrible way of life imposed on everyone including Muslims. It is tolerable precisely to the degree to which it is not followed, and the world would be a better place if Muhammed had gone through with his suicide attempts.
The success of the EDL and of Tommy Robinson is a direct result of the whole question of violent Islamism being pushed outside the boundaries of respectable discourse by people screaming racist.
I do have a degree of admiration for Tommy Robinson because from this fairly shabby start he has developed into someone who can make his point quite ably and intelligently.
Elysium said:
How are the authorities "stifling grown up debate about Islam"?
By refusing entry to the country for figures like Geert Wijlders, Robert Spencer and Pamela Gellar who do discuss these issues in a grown up fashion. By insisting every terrorist atrocity is nothing at all to do with the real peaceful and tolerant religion of Islam and anyone claiming it is has an agenda. By pandering to the absurd conflation of Islam with race and the nonsensical invention of Islamophobia as a form of racism. AJS- said:
The success of the EDL and of Tommy Robinson is a direct result of the whole question of violent Islamism being pushed outside the boundaries of respectable discourse by people screaming racist.
The further that you push in one direction, the more people get involved in pushing back.
We are seeing this effect across Europe at the moment. France has a raving socialist in charge. Marine La Pen is surging in the polls.
Austria, Hungary, the Netherlands and Chezoslovakia are all following suit.
Shutting down conversation only builds up the pressure.
I'm no fan of tommy robinson, but I urge you all to watch these videos;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQ94jFg_4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-UAQAvCCC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YQ94jFg_4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-UAQAvCCC4
AJS- said:
If not quite a monopoly one religion certainly has an extraordinary market share, but this thread isn't about Islam or other religions.
In stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
With reference to him being racist and extreme there is probably little to no solid evidence of this, he was a former BNP member and then was heavily involved in the EDL with support from people like Jeff Marsh http://powerbase.info/index.php/Jeff_MarshIn stifling grown up debate about Islam the authorities have created the perfect conditions for an extreme response, and for a possibly more than healthy degree of scepticism about the treatment of Tommy Robinson. I don't really see anything he has done that marks him out as racist or particularly extreme.
If this was simply football related and this is how they normally deal with that then he's making a bit of free publicity out of it. I suppose that is to be expected with someone whose brand depends on publicity.
I still suspect that it is politically motivated and that this is a horrible development in a supposedly free country.
I would imagine behind closed doors his views would of been far right, but in his defense he left the EDL when he felt it was becoming too much of an extreme right wing organisation
He raises some very good points about the situation of Islam in Europe and the UK and how it has become very difficult to discuss this subject, but a convicted criminal, football hooligan and former member of the BNP & EDL is not the ideal person to be raising these issues
AJS- said:
The success of the EDL and of Tommy Robinson is a direct result of the whole question of violent Islamism being pushed outside the boundaries of respectable discourse by people screaming racist.
I do have a degree of admiration for Tommy Robinson because from this fairly shabby start he has developed into someone who can make his point quite ably and intelligently.
The above surprises no one, I bet if the chap was called Muhammad you wouldn't be in this thread other than to put the boot in.I do have a degree of admiration for Tommy Robinson because from this fairly shabby start he has developed into someone who can make his point quite ably and intelligently.
It's no wonder people scream racist from time to time...
kurt535 said:
good grief....it amazes me how many covert supporters of this person there are on this site!
i think piston heads might consider changing its name to 'rightwing heads' before much longer
Its quite an eye opener isn't it?i think piston heads might consider changing its name to 'rightwing heads' before much longer
Is it me, or would such "support" never have been so overt on something like PH only a few years ago?
I don't recall seeing such views appearing so mainstream before on here.
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