This feels very wrong, police action

[Digga]

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

The problem is, given the football hooliganism element alone, had there been trouble and the police had done nothing - knowing he was there - they would be in an untenable position.

As much as I don't want the UK to end up like parts of the USA, where shopping mall security guards (effectively) have the power to move on innocent groups of adults holding normal conversations because they are 'blocking the thoroughfare', there are certain premptive actions that are necessary and acceptable.

[Funkycoldribena]

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

[rscott]

Digga said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

The problem is, given the football hooliganism element alone, had there been trouble and the police had done nothing - knowing he was there - they would be in an untenable position.

As much as I don't want the UK to end up like parts of the USA, where shopping mall security guards (effectively) have the power to move on innocent groups of adults holding normal conversations because they are 'blocking the thoroughfare', there are certain premptive actions that are necessary and acceptable.

Completely agree with you on all of that. Interesting to see Essex Police are using a dispersal order to try to prevent further trouble following the murder of a Polish resident recently - http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016-08-31/dispersa...

[Digga]

rscott said:

Completely agree with you on all of that. Interesting to see Essex Police are using a dispersal order to try to prevent further trouble following the murder of a Polish resident recently - http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016-08-31/dispersa...

Listening to some local accounts, it might have been prevented, had they previously dispersed the young yobs. I'm not sure whether it was racially motivated or not, but it most certainly was 'asbo' related.

[bitchstewie]

Digga said:

Listening to some local accounts, it might have been prevented, had they previously dispersed the young yobs. I'm not sure whether it was racially motivated or not, but it most certainly was 'asbo' related.

That's the cake and eat it element to this though.

If the Police are pro-active in dealing with poor misunderstood Tommy they're being heavy handed because he hasn't committed any crime.

If they do fk all about a bunch of yobs who then go on to stab someone and they say "Sorry but they weren't committing any crime so we couldn't do anything" they're hung out to dry for not exercising any common sense or using any powers they might have had available.

I'd love to be Police Officer.

[FredClogs]

Funkycoldribena said:

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

He said "racist football hooligan scum" as a general description of Tommy and his mates.

I doubt they'd deny any of those descriptions (off camera) the ones I know don't.

[Digga]

bhstewie said:

Digga said:

Listening to some local accounts, it might have been prevented, had they previously dispersed the young yobs. I'm not sure whether it was racially motivated or not, but it most certainly was 'asbo' related.

That's the cake and eat it element to this though.

If the Police are pro-active in dealing with poor misunderstood Tommy they're being heavy handed because he hasn't committed any crime.

If they do fk all about a bunch of yobs who then go on to stab someone and they say "Sorry but they weren't committing any crime so we couldn't do anything" they're hung out to dry for not exercising any common sense or using any powers they might have had available.

I'd love to be Police Officer.

Agreed. There have been a number of instances like the one in Harlow, where ASBO turns into real aggro.

[AJS-]

Elysium
Would you argue that people who say Scientology or the Moonies should be illegal are also inciting hatred?

Or for that matter people promoting a book claiming that Jews and Christians are the vilest of creatures...

[rscott]

AJS- said:

Elysium
Would you argue that people who say Scientology or the Moonies should be illegal are also inciting hatred?

Or for that matter people promoting a book claiming that Jews and Christians are the vilest of creatures...

For once, can you try and keep vaguely on topic.

[turbobloke]

rscott said:

AJS- said:

Elysium
Would you argue that people who say Scientology or the Moonies should be illegal are also inciting hatred?

Or for that matter people promoting a book claiming that Jews and Christians are the vilest of creatures...

For once, can you try and keep vaguely on topic.

Dipping of the shoulder followed by sideswerve are clearly visible.

[rscott]

turbobloke said:

rscott said:

AJS- said:

Elysium
Would you argue that people who say Scientology or the Moonies should be illegal are also inciting hatred?

Or for that matter people promoting a book claiming that Jews and Christians are the vilest of creatures...

For once, can you try and keep vaguely on topic.

Dipping of the shoulder followed by sideswerve are clearly visible.

By AJS- , agreed. Frustrating, isn't it.

Facts of this one are that a convicted football hooligan was asked to leave a pub by the police, as were at least 17 other football fans. For some reason, AJS- doesn't want to discuss that, he'd prefer to carry on his anti-Islam campaigning.

Edited by rscott on Wednesday 31st August 16:17

[Alpinestars]

Funkycoldribena said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

This case suggests that offensive anti Muslim comments are racist.

I'd love to get the transcript to see the full context, but the defence lawyer's comments are a good indication that it is considered racist by our laws.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

[WinstonWolf]

Alpinestars said:

Funkycoldribena said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

This case suggests that offensive anti Muslim comments are racist.

I'd love to get the transcript to see the full context, but the defence lawyer's comments are a good indication that it is considered racist by our laws.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

So Muslims are a race, blimey.

Then again if you live in a caravan you've got your own race these days so I suppose anything is possible..

[rscott]

Alpinestars said:

Funkycoldribena said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

This case suggests that offensive anti Muslim comments are racist.

I'd love to get the transcript to see the full context, but the defence lawyer's comments are a good indication that it is considered racist by our laws.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

Didn't the Racial & Religious Hatred Act basically extend the existing racial hatred offences to cover additional faiths? Abuse of Sikhs and Jews were already offences under the existing laws so this act extended the protection to all faiths.

[FredClogs]

WinstonWolf said:

So Muslims are a race, blimey.

Then again if you live in a caravan you've got your own race these days so I suppose anything is possible..

At the risk of breaking the internet with the 12 billionth repetition of the obvious question - if religions and cultures don't define race could you explain what the races of man are? Feel free to quote whatever 19th century Victorian Eugenicists you particularly align to.

It's semantics Jim, but not as we know it....

[turbobloke]

Alpinestars said:

Funkycoldribena said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

This case suggests that offensive anti Muslim comments are racist.

I'd love to get the transcript to see the full context, but the defence lawyer's comments are a good indication that it is considered racist by our laws.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

When it comes to laws, is it the laws or how they're applied?

Take for example that Cambridge author who found herself on the other end of a telephone line with a MetPol wpc wagging her finger because the author had dared to phone in to a radio prog and express a lawful view on gay adoption (the WPC stated that no law had been broken) and some sap had called the Met to do a Stasi.

In her account of what happened, the author clearly indicated that the WPC said a homophobic complaint had been registered against her (the author) yet also clearly stated that no law had been broken.

This arises from the way that MetPol and police in general define racism operationally, which is also promulgated by the BBC.

Beeb said:

The police's definition of a hate crime is: 'Any incident, which constitutes a criminal offence, which is perceived by the victim or any other person as being motivated by prejudice or hate.' So in short, if you think it's racism, it is racism.

This intellectually bankrupt and infantile definition of hate crimes involving e.g. alleged homophobia or racism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

What any single person perceives must be irrelevant, Courts operate on the basis of a hypothetical reasonable person, and the professionally permanently offended are not reasonable people.

It's also infantile because it focuses on self as the be-all and end-all, this introspective and exclusively self-dominated world view is how infants operate in their pre-operational stage of cognitive development before they can successfully navigate the three mountains test of egocentrism.

[WinstonWolf]

FredClogs said:

WinstonWolf said:

So Muslims are a race, blimey.

Then again if you live in a caravan you've got your own race these days so I suppose anything is possible..

At the risk of breaking the internet with the 12 billionth repetition of the obvious question - if religions and cultures don't define race could you explain what the races of man are? Feel free to quote whatever 19th century Victorian Eugenicists you particularly align to.

It's semantics Jim, but not as we know it....

I'm sorry oh great Fred, what race *are* Muslims then?

[Elysium]

rscott said:

Alpinestars said:

Funkycoldribena said:

blindswelledrat said:

Same old faces falling over themselves to defend the human rights of a racist football hooligan scum, poor little hard-done-by-baby.
Same people who fall over themselves to argue that muslims and immigrants don't deserve any rights.
The double-standards are so transparent and embarrassing that I don't know how they have the gall to type.

And another with the racism card.
Where's the racism?

This case suggests that offensive anti Muslim comments are racist.

I'd love to get the transcript to see the full context, but the defence lawyer's comments are a good indication that it is considered racist by our laws.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...

Didn't the Racial & Religious Hatred Act basically extend the existing racial hatred offences to cover additional faiths? Abuse of Sikhs and Jews were already offences under the existing laws so this act extended the protection to all faiths.

Correct.

The mechanisms giving rise to racism and religious hatred are identical. They are based on the same cognitive weakness and negative stereotyping. It is almost inevitable that those prone to racism are also prone to religious hatred and vice versa.

It is absolutely logical to extend the existing legislation to afford the same protection to religious groups that was previously provided to ethnic groups.

[FredClogs]

WinstonWolf said:

FredClogs said:

WinstonWolf said:

So Muslims are a race, blimey.

Then again if you live in a caravan you've got your own race these days so I suppose anything is possible..

At the risk of breaking the internet with the 12 billionth repetition of the obvious question - if religions and cultures don't define race could you explain what the races of man are? Feel free to quote whatever 19th century Victorian Eugenicists you particularly align to.

It's semantics Jim, but not as we know it....

I'm sorry oh great Fred, what race *are* Muslims then?

What race are you?

[blindswelledrat]

WinstonWolf said:

FredClogs said:

WinstonWolf said:

So Muslims are a race, blimey.

Then again if you live in a caravan you've got your own race these days so I suppose anything is possible..

At the risk of breaking the internet with the 12 billionth repetition of the obvious question - if religions and cultures don't define race could you explain what the races of man are? Feel free to quote whatever 19th century Victorian Eugenicists you particularly align to.

It's semantics Jim, but not as we know it....

I'm sorry oh great Fred, what race *are* Muslims then?

It's okay, Winston. We can use the phrase bigoted xenophobe if it hurts you so much to accept that a 1000 year old definition of a word might have changed a little over the years.
There, now, is that better?