Apple and Irish government collared over tax deal

[Hosenbugler]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Rather than reading my posts you seem determined to find an anti EU slant to this story.

It would be exceedingly difficult to find a pro-EU slant.

I read your posts, rest easy on that score, but any replies are along the lines I prefer; like your replies I suspect - that's how it works.

I would suggest this is the EU at its best.Identifying a member states who is clearly not acting in a proper manner.

A state assisting tax evasion by a resident corporation is not the best form of international cooperation.

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

This is just an "any excuse" money grab, no more, no less.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

[Digga]

fblm said:

johnfm said:

ATG said:

jjlynn27 said:

johnfm said:

Corporation tax. Paid by shareholders, employees and customers really.

Do away with it, simplify the tax code and make up the shortfall with consumption taxes.

Sounds like a vote winner.

A challenge to sell that one to the voting public, alias "the mob".

"If you elect us we will stop taxing the evil corporaty corporationists and tax you (hard working families) instead"

At least you'd get the vote of all the corporations. Oh ...

Oh, I agree you'd never get it past the Guardian/Mirror and Facebook illiterates, irrespective of whether it is better for the economy or not.

Sadly you'd never get it past the politicians either. It's the ultimate stealth tax. I'll wager most people think companies should pay more, ignorant of the basic truth about who pays it. Far better to keep people in the dark about how much tax they pay by keeping it indirect.

Same with business rates. There's a reason why desperate councils are still bending over backwards to build shopping centres in towns where footfall and high street occupancy is already dying on it's arse and it's not just brown envelopes. Our whole system is wedded to tax and spend, and terrified of letting the reigns go and merely taxing consumption.

[turbobloke]

Hosenbugler said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Rather than reading my posts you seem determined to find an anti EU slant to this story.

It would be exceedingly difficult to find a pro-EU slant.

I read your posts, rest easy on that score, but any replies are along the lines I prefer; like your replies I suspect - that's how it works.

I would suggest this is the EU at its best.Identifying a member states who is clearly not acting in a proper manner.

A state assisting tax evasion by a resident corporation is not the best form of international cooperation.

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

I'm not too fond of 'the EU approach' myself, just to clear that up

[Hosenbugler]

turbobloke said:

Hosenbugler said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Rather than reading my posts you seem determined to find an anti EU slant to this story.

It would be exceedingly difficult to find a pro-EU slant.

I read your posts, rest easy on that score, but any replies are along the lines I prefer; like your replies I suspect - that's how it works.

I would suggest this is the EU at its best.Identifying a member states who is clearly not acting in a proper manner.

A state assisting tax evasion by a resident corporation is not the best form of international cooperation.

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

I'm not too fond of 'the EU approach' myself, just to clear that up

Had spotted that TB, I tend to read far more than what I post

[turbobloke]

Hosenbugler said:

turbobloke said:

Hosenbugler said:

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

Mrr T said:

Rather than reading my posts you seem determined to find an anti EU slant to this story.

It would be exceedingly difficult to find a pro-EU slant.

I read your posts, rest easy on that score, but any replies are along the lines I prefer; like your replies I suspect - that's how it works.

I would suggest this is the EU at its best.Identifying a member states who is clearly not acting in a proper manner.

A state assisting tax evasion by a resident corporation is not the best form of international cooperation.

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

I'm not too fond of 'the EU approach' myself, just to clear that up

Had spotted that TB, I tend to read far more than what I post

Is it that obvious

[Mrr T]

Hosenbugler said:

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

This is just an "any excuse" money grab, no more, no less.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

So the Irish Government assisted a major international company in tax evasion and its all the fault of the EU commision for pointing it out.

I think you will find Apple will have broken a number of laws in many EU countries.

[Hosenbugler]

Mrr T said:

Hosenbugler said:

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

This is just an "any excuse" money grab, no more, no less.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

So the Irish Government assisted a major international company in tax evasion and its all the fault of the EU commision for pointing it out.

I think you will find Apple will have broken a number of laws in many EU countries.

The democratically elected Irish Government has tax raising powers over its jurisdiction , it made an agreement concerning that taxation with a 3rd party. There has been NO tax evasion . As they both make perfectly clear. Not only that, the EU make it clear that Apple have broken NO laws . Yet they still want to steal £11 billion from them.

The agreement was made between Apple and the Irish govt years ago, the EU did fk all about it , untill of course their pet Euro project hit the rocks of their incompetence . This is nothing other than a money grab for "any excuse" very, very Soviet Union.

[Mrr T]

Hosenbugler said:

The democratically elected Irish Government has tax raising powers over its jurisdiction , it made an agreement concerning that taxation with a 3rd party. There has been NO tax evasion . As they both make perfectly clear. Not only that, the EU make it clear that Apple have broken NO laws . Yet they still want to steal £11 billion from them.

The agreement was made between Apple and the Irish govt years ago, the EU did fk all about it , untill of course their pet Euro project hit the rocks of their incompetence . This is nothing other than a money grab for "any excuse" very, very Soviet Union.

Read the link. It says no laws in Ireland where broken. However, I expect laws in a number of other EU countries have been broken. Are you happy the Irish Government assisted Apple in providing incorrect Tax returns in the UK?

[Hosenbugler]

What link, here are some links:

Here: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-fails-to-r...


"Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has weighed into the tax dispute between Apple and the European Union, saying the Irish government should write a letter to the EU telling them to "f**k off".

Dubbing the EU's ruling "bizarre", Mr O'Leary said: "One of the fundamental principles of the European Union is that each country has its autonomy to make its own tax decisions.

"Frankly the Irish government should turn around - they shouldn't even appeal the decision - they should just write a letter to Europe and tell them politely to f**k off.

"The idea that you have the state aid mob - who've had more court verdicts overturned than any other department in Europe in the last 20 years - come along 10 years after the fact and say, 'no we didn't like that, we think you should have done something else', is frankly bizarre."


Here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2923_en...

"Tax rulings as such are perfectly legal. They are comfort letters issued by tax authorities to give a company clarity on how its corporate tax will be calculated or on the use of special tax provisions."

There then follows a new interpretation of the EU's own laws regarding the Irish/Apple agreement , a tax agreement they have just stated is perfectly legal. As said, this is just a money grab.

The UK has no roll in determining tax laws in Ireland.

[turbobloke]

On this occasion I like the cut of O'Leary's jib.

[toppstuff]

Mrr T said:

Hosenbugler said:

Actually, its the EU at its dictatorial worst. A democratically elected Irish Government made an agreement with a third party. A bunch of unelected autocrats have decide that they are not happy with that agreement and are bullying a company, who they feely admit broke no laws. Irrespective of the fact that both parties to that original agreement are/were perfectly happy with it.

This is just an "any excuse" money grab, no more, no less.

I am not fan of Apple , or big corprorates , but I'm less of a fan of bullying thieving unelected autocrats. Thank fk for Brexit.

So the Irish Government assisted a major international company in tax evasion and its all the fault of the EU commision for pointing it out.

I think you will find Apple will have broken a number of laws in many EU countries.

Hosenbugler is right in this case. You are simply wrong.

Apple did not evade ANY tax. They complied with the law 100%. Irelands democratically elected government made a totally legal deal with Apple - presumably because they knew it would attract more companies. There is also of course all of the income tax and national insurance etc they would also pay, plus all the VAT the staff would pay living in Ireland on decent salaries, so for the Irish it was obviously a good idea.

The EU is now retrospectively changing the rules. That is a very, very bad thing.

Imagine you had the EU going after you, because they decided that the last job you had did not pay enough tax, so they have just thought it would be a giggle to go back to you and say that you should pay them 100,000 in tax simply because they say so. This is essentially what the EU is doing to the Irish. They are quite rightly furious and this will end up in the courts.

[John145]

turbobloke said:

On this occasion I like the cut of O'Leary's jib.

I find him highly hypocritical.

To threaten the UK for having the audacity to want to leave the EU and then only a couple of months later bemoan the EU anti-state aid laws is laughable.

Odious man.

This is why we are leaving the EU. Because we want to make our own laws entirely. The idea that the EU does not currently have some level of tax control is laughable and why the remainians who lauded such half-truths failed.

[Dr Jekyll]

Mrr T said:

Read the link. It says no laws in Ireland where broken. However, I expect laws in a number of other EU countries have been broken. Are you happy the Irish Government assisted Apple in providing incorrect Tax returns in the UK?

If laws in other countries have been broken it's up to those governments to prosecute. It isn't an excuse for the EU to rewrite Ireland's tax law with retrospective effect when Apple haven't even been charged never mind convicted.

[turbobloke]

John145 said:

turbobloke said:

On this occasion I like the cut of O'Leary's jib.

I find him highly hypocritical.

To threaten the UK for having the audacity to want to leave the EU and then only a couple of months later bemoan the EU anti-state aid laws is laughable.

I did say 'on this occasion' not a previous one.

John145 said:

Odious man.

As above, it depends on the instance and to a degree on the eye of the beholder.

[Toaster]

Hmmm this post is amusing so what do the following countries have in Common:

Ireland (Current topic)
Monaco (Apart from F1)
Luxembourg
Cayman Islands
Jersey
Mauritius
Switzerland
Bahamas
Bermuda

Now whilst Ireland was chosen by Apple it could have been Switzerland these my friends are all places where financial nests are looked after some are EU some are not, to be honest if the EU wants a member country to stop a certain financial incentive it should be retrospective not 25 years after it was set up. Blame Ireland, fine them, payment to be in Guinness. To be honest its all a mess.

[Alpinestars]

Dr Jekyll said:

If laws in other countries have been broken it's up to those governments to prosecute. It isn't an excuse for the EU to rewrite Ireland's tax law with retrospective effect when Apple haven't even been charged never mind convicted.

Not aimed at you specifically, but I thought it might be useful to set out some facts as I understand them.

There are 2 companies involved, both registered in Ireland, but tax resident elsewhere, both with Irish branches. Any profits allocated to the branch are taxable in Ireland, any profits allocated to the company (referred to as head office in some articles), is not taxable anywhere. I suspect it could be tax resident in Bermuda.

One of the company records all sales made in Europe, India, the ME and Africa. The territories where sales are made don't make much profit, but that wasn't the subject of the point being discussed.

The Irish Tax Authorities entered into an agreement with Apple to allow it to allocate a significant amount of its profits on the sales to the "head office", where no tax is paid, and the small balance, to the Irish branch. The Irish branch profits are subject to Irish corporation tax in the normal way.

The overall position is that;

a) profits are shifted from the territory where the sale is made, to Ireland. This is something BEPS and local tax rules should address, but is not what was in point.
b) profits in Ireland are bifurcated to a taxable branch and non taxable head office. Since the allocation to the branch was small, the overall tax paid in Ireland was low.

Whilst Apple compiled with all Irish tax laws, the Irish tax authorities have favourable rulings to Apple, allowing the allocation between branch and head office. This is State Aid, because the rules are not available to all corporates in Ireland. Ie, it prefers some groups/companies over others. This is the point. It's not a tax point per se.

Under state aid rules, the EU can go back 10 years. It first challenged Apple in 2013.

The same rules have already successfully been applied against Fiat, Starbucks, Amazon and McDonalds, where the Netherlands and Luxembourg gave illegal state aid.

Had Ireland collected the same amount of tax as it has, but created a level playing field by allowing all corporates access to the same pricing agreement, it would not have been State Aid.

It'll be interesting to see whether the EU can force Ireland to collect the tax, and whether other jurisdictions where sales are made in Europe, ME, India and Africa challenge the allocation of sales to Ireland.

[Leithen]

Alpinestars said:

Whilst Apple compiled with all Irish tax laws, the Irish tax authorities have favourable rulings to Apple, allowing the allocation between branch and head office. This is State Aid, because the rules are not available to all corporates in Ireland. Ie, it prefers some groups/companies over others. This is the point. It's not a tax point per se.

It will be interesting so see what burden of proof is required to either challenge or support the State Aid interpretation.

Have other corporates been denied it? Is it enough that other corporates haven't requested a similar ruling?

[Dr Jekyll]

Alpinestars said:

One of the company records all sales made in Europe, India, the ME and Africa. The territories where sales are made don't make much profit, but that wasn't the subject of the point being discussed.

The Irish Tax Authorities entered into an agreement with Apple to allow it to allocate a significant amount of its profits on the sales to the "head office", where no tax is paid, and the small balance, to the Irish branch. The Irish branch profits are subject to Irish corporation tax in the normal way.

Two issues.
First of all if 'shifting' profit from other territories into Ireland is valid, why isn't shifting it out again?
Secondly, the Irish government is adamant that there was no 'agreement' with Apple. Merely an official confirmation as to how the existing Irish tax rules applied to Apple's situation.

[anonymous-user]

This story has the potential for a major st storm for Apple if their customer base twigs that they are paying no tax.

[turbobloke]

Why should Ireland not have the freedom to treat companies however it likes?

If highly successful, and/or entrepreneurial, and/or innovative companies are given breaks of any kind, that's a matter for Ireland and the companies and certainly not the meddling dead hand of the EU.

At least not until EU tax harmonisation produces more and more nations with low tax pro-business environments

If other companies want to negotiate advantages for their own position they can look to become successful/entrepreneurial/innovative and share the benefits.

That said, it's still a matter purely for Ireland and the relevant companies (or should be) and if other corporates don't like their own overall tax or other state-related conditions they can either put up with it or ship out.

As it happens, "700 US companies now located in Ireland as direct investment soars" as per the headline in The Guardian. Well done Ireland. The UK should get cracking as well, hopefully the Autumn Statement will include bigger-than-expected corptax reduction, and other incentives for corporates to remain in the UK or relocate here.