Apple and Irish government collared over tax deal
Discussion
jsf said:
It doesn't matter who broke the law, the tax is due to be paid.
What your point does raise is the question of whether Ireland may be subject to further action by the EU and fines against Ireland are imposed if found guilty in court for breaking EU laws. I'd love to be in the room when that one happens. This may be why the Irish government has not yet formally challenged this ruling and is meeting again on Friday to discuss the matter further.
I'm not a State Aid expert, but I don't think fines can be imposed under State Aid rules. They are designed to return companies to a position that would have applied, had State Aid not been given. What your point does raise is the question of whether Ireland may be subject to further action by the EU and fines against Ireland are imposed if found guilty in court for breaking EU laws. I'd love to be in the room when that one happens. This may be why the Irish government has not yet formally challenged this ruling and is meeting again on Friday to discuss the matter further.
What could be interesting is what action the EU can take if Ireland refuses to collect the tax.
Alpinestars said:
turbobloke said:
Not wishing to be obtuse, as that is not my intention, why whould the Irish tax authorities not allow it? If they see other advantages from doing so which outweigh or potentially outweigh any disadvantage(s) for example...or simply because it's their own decision to make - or should be (yes I do appreciate that Ireland continued to have the misfortune to have ongoing EU membership).
Also not wishing to be obtuse, that's not what's in point here. Broadly, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants. Had it set the law to apply to all companies, the EU would not have batted an eyelid.
If as you say, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants, then if it wants to have different provision for different companies it should be able to do so because that's what it wants and Ireland can set taxes and laws as it wants.
Alpinestars said:
The point is that Ireland allowed favourable rulings to Apple (for obvious commercial reasons). Those rulings were not available to all companies operating in Ireland. And that "favouritism" has been deemed to be State Aid.
So what?!Ireland...sets taxes and related laws as it wants...it wants to act in a certain way...end of story if it can set taxes and laws as it wants.
It's the dead hand of the EU and the self-harming (national interest harming) club membership rules that say 'non' purely to further the interests of das projekt in its state of decay.
Sod that, and the UK is about to.
Alpinestars said:
Who has benefited and who filed the advance pricing agreements? Apple.
Everyone who operates in the EU knows they are subject to State Aid rules. What they overlooked was that selective tax rulings would fall into the definition of State Aid.
I see that you are unafraid to use Orwellian terminology.Everyone who operates in the EU knows they are subject to State Aid rules. What they overlooked was that selective tax rulings would fall into the definition of State Aid.
The Irish state has not given any money to Apple.
State aid used to mean that the government actually gave money to a company.
You probably believed that when the government decided not to fund empty bedrooms for the unemployed, that they were "taxing" the benefit claimants.
The Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment to encourage a massive investment. Why should an independent country not be allowed to do this?
The Irish people support the tax treatment. All major Irish political parties support it. The EU cannot win this battle.
turbobloke said:
Alpinestars said:
turbobloke said:
Not wishing to be obtuse, as that is not my intention, why whould the Irish tax authorities not allow it? If they see other advantages from doing so which outweigh or potentially outweigh any disadvantage(s) for example...or simply because it's their own decision to make - or should be (yes I do appreciate that Ireland continued to have the misfortune to have ongoing EU membership).
Also not wishing to be obtuse, that's not what's in point here. Broadly, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants. Had it set the law to apply to all companies, the EU would not have batted an eyelid.
If as you say, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants, then if it wants to have different provision for different companies it should be able to do so because that's what it wants and Ireland can set taxes and laws as it wants.
Alpinestars said:
The point is that Ireland allowed favourable rulings to Apple (for obvious commercial reasons). Those rulings were not available to all companies operating in Ireland. And that "favouritism" has been deemed to be State Aid.
So what?!Ireland...sets taxes and related laws as it wants...it wants to act in a certain way...end of story if it can set taxes and laws as it wants.
It's the dead hand of the EU and the self-harming (national interest harming) club membership rules that say 'non' purely to further the interests of das projekt in its state of decay.
Sod that, and the UK is about to.
It most not give State Aid in doing so.
Hope that helps.
don4l said:
I see that you are unafraid to use Orwellian terminology.
The Irish state has not given any money to Apple.
State aid used to mean that the government actually gave money to a company.
You probably believed that when the government decided not to fund empty bedrooms for the unemployed, that they were "taxing" the benefit claimants.
The Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment to encourage a massive investment. Why should an independent country not be allowed to do this?
The Irish people support the tax treatment. All major Irish political parties support it. The EU cannot win this battle.
Jesus, talk about shooting the messenger. The Irish state has not given any money to Apple.
State aid used to mean that the government actually gave money to a company.
You probably believed that when the government decided not to fund empty bedrooms for the unemployed, that they were "taxing" the benefit claimants.
The Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment to encourage a massive investment. Why should an independent country not be allowed to do this?
The Irish people support the tax treatment. All major Irish political parties support it. The EU cannot win this battle.
Here's a definition for you.
State aid is any advantage granted by public authorities through state resources on a selective basis to any organisations that could potentially distort competition and trade in the European Union (EU). The definition of state aid is very broad because 'an advantage' can take many forms.
Giving Apple a favourable ruling, not available to everyone in Ireland, sounds like State Aid to me.
Alpinestars said:
turbobloke said:
Alpinestars said:
turbobloke said:
Not wishing to be obtuse, as that is not my intention, why whould the Irish tax authorities not allow it? If they see other advantages from doing so which outweigh or potentially outweigh any disadvantage(s) for example...or simply because it's their own decision to make - or should be (yes I do appreciate that Ireland continued to have the misfortune to have ongoing EU membership).
Also not wishing to be obtuse, that's not what's in point here. Broadly, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants. Had it set the law to apply to all companies, the EU would not have batted an eyelid.
If as you say, Ireland can set whatever tax rate and laws it wants, then if it wants to have different provision for different companies it should be able to do so because that's what it wants and Ireland can set taxes and laws as it wants.
Alpinestars said:
The point is that Ireland allowed favourable rulings to Apple (for obvious commercial reasons). Those rulings were not available to all companies operating in Ireland. And that "favouritism" has been deemed to be State Aid.
So what?!Ireland...sets taxes and related laws as it wants...it wants to act in a certain way...end of story if it can set taxes and laws as it wants.
It's the dead hand of the EU and the self-harming (national interest harming) club membership rules that say 'non' purely to further the interests of das projekt in its state of decay.
Sod that, and the UK is about to.
It most not give State Aid in doing so.
Hope that helps.
If Ireland is free to set its tax laws it can set tax laws which involve state aid.
The exclusion of a state aid aspect from the conditions of 'free to' and 'what it wants' is purely convenient and not necessary or logical.
Clearly Ireland cannot set its tax laws as it wants, due to the self-harm transfer and control freakery of the EU.
Alpinestars said:
turbobloke said:
It doesn't help your case at all!
If Ireland is free to set its tax laws it can set tax laws which involve state aid.
The exclusion of a state aid aspect from the conditions of 'free to' and 'what it wants' is purely convenient and not necessary or logical.
Clearly Ireland cannot set its tax laws as it wants, due to the self-harm transfer and control freakery of the EU.
If your point is that it's in the EU and has to abide by EU law, yes it does. That's a bit of a truism. But I think you are being obtuse now. If Ireland is free to set its tax laws it can set tax laws which involve state aid.
The exclusion of a state aid aspect from the conditions of 'free to' and 'what it wants' is purely convenient and not necessary or logical.
Clearly Ireland cannot set its tax laws as it wants, due to the self-harm transfer and control freakery of the EU.
Alpinestars said:
What could be interesting is what action the EU can take if Ireland refuses to collect the tax.
Wrong.What will be interesting, is what action Ireland will take if the EU tries to force Ireland to collect the tax.
Ireland will leave the EU before Apple are forced to pay this tax. The ignorant, leftie gobs
tes in the EU do not understand where the people of Ireland are coming from.Michael O'Leary sums it up quite well in today's Irish Times.
Michael O'Leary said:
Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary has weighed into the tax dispute between Apple and the European Union, saying the Government should write a letter to the EU telling them to “f**k off”.
Dubbing the EU’s ruling “bizarre”, the outspoken airline chief said: “One of the fundamental principles of the European Union is that each country has its autonomy to make its own tax decisions.
“Frankly the Irish Government should turn around – they shouldn’t even appeal the decision – they should just write a letter to Europe and tell them politely to f**k off.
Ireland has a tiger economy based on low corporate taxation, both stated and unstated.
The rest of Europe has been seething over this for a long time and finally the Irish government has been called to book, no wonder they can't make a decision. They don#t want to upset their EU overlords, neither do they want to kill the golden geese.
The UK should reduce corporate tax rates to below the Irish ones now we have Brexit to give them something really to think about.
The rest of Europe has been seething over this for a long time and finally the Irish government has been called to book, no wonder they can't make a decision. They don#t want to upset their EU overlords, neither do they want to kill the golden geese.
The UK should reduce corporate tax rates to below the Irish ones now we have Brexit to give them something really to think about.
don4l said:
Alpinestars said:
What could be interesting is what action the EU can take if Ireland refuses to collect the tax.
Wrong.What will be interesting, is what action Ireland will take if the EU tries to force Ireland to collect the tax.
Ireland will leave the EU before Apple are forced to pay this tax. The ignorant, leftie gobs
tes in the EU do not understand where the people of Ireland are coming from.Michael O'Leary sums it up quite well in today's Irish Times.
Michael O'Leary said:
Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary has weighed into the tax dispute between Apple and the European Union, saying the Government should write a letter to the EU telling them to “f**k off”.
Dubbing the EU’s ruling “bizarre”, the outspoken airline chief said: “One of the fundamental principles of the European Union is that each country has its autonomy to make its own tax decisions.
“Frankly the Irish Government should turn around – they shouldn’t even appeal the decision – they should just write a letter to Europe and tell them politely to f**k off.
don4l said:
Alpinestars said:
What could be interesting is what action the EU can take if Ireland refuses to collect the tax.
Wrong.What will be interesting, is what action Ireland will take if the EU tries to force Ireland to collect the tax.
Ireland will leave the EU before Apple are forced to pay this tax. The ignorant, leftie gobs
tes in the EU do not understand where the people of Ireland are coming from.Michael O'Leary sums it up quite well in today's Irish Times.
Michael O'Leary said:
Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary has weighed into the tax dispute between Apple and the European Union, saying the Government should write a letter to the EU telling them to “f**k off”.
Dubbing the EU’s ruling “bizarre”, the outspoken airline chief said: “One of the fundamental principles of the European Union is that each country has its autonomy to make its own tax decisions.
“Frankly the Irish Government should turn around – they shouldn’t even appeal the decision – they should just write a letter to Europe and tell them politely to f**k off.
His airline is not Delta, Emirates etc
Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
I see that you are unafraid to use Orwellian terminology.
The Irish state has not given any money to Apple.
State aid used to mean that the government actually gave money to a company.
You probably believed that when the government decided not to fund empty bedrooms for the unemployed, that they were "taxing" the benefit claimants.
The Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment to encourage a massive investment. Why should an independent country not be allowed to do this?
The Irish people support the tax treatment. All major Irish political parties support it. The EU cannot win this battle.
Jesus, talk about shooting the messenger. The Irish state has not given any money to Apple.
State aid used to mean that the government actually gave money to a company.
You probably believed that when the government decided not to fund empty bedrooms for the unemployed, that they were "taxing" the benefit claimants.
The Irish government may have given Apple preferential treatment to encourage a massive investment. Why should an independent country not be allowed to do this?
The Irish people support the tax treatment. All major Irish political parties support it. The EU cannot win this battle.
Here's a definition for you.
State aid is any advantage granted by public authorities through state resources on a selective basis to any organisations that could potentially distort competition and trade in the European Union (EU). The definition of state aid is very broad because 'an advantage' can take many forms.
Giving Apple a favourable ruling, not available to everyone in Ireland, sounds like State Aid to me.
The bit that you seem unable to grasp, is that everyone in Ireland feels that they gain from Apple's investment.
This is a battle that the EU cannot win.
don4l said:
The only small problem with your argument is that the people of Ireland feel that they benefit from Apple's investment.
The bit that you seem unable to grasp, is that everyone in Ireland feels that they gain from Apple's investment.
This is a battle that the EU cannot win.
Good old PH. The bit that you seem unable to grasp, is that everyone in Ireland feels that they gain from Apple's investment.
This is a battle that the EU cannot win.
Where have I stated that I agree that the EU should pursue Apple?
I've stated what I believe the facts to be. I have no interest in whether Apple complies or not. I don't have a dog in the fight.
fblm said:
IMO Alpinestars clearly understands this subject far better than anyone else frequenting this forum. It would make more sense to ask him questions rather than argue with him!
Quite funny, isn't it. One quite clearly knows what he's talking about, the other two are authority on everything from climate change to NHS, taxation, education and pretty much everything else. In their own heads. jjlynn27 said:
fblm said:
IMO Alpinestars clearly understands this subject far better than anyone else frequenting this forum. It would make more sense to ask him questions rather than argue with him!
Quite funny, isn't it. One quite clearly knows what he's talking about, the other two are authority on everything from climate change to NHS, taxation, education and pretty much everything else. In their own heads. Nullius in verba.
Even so, if you could have shown anything factual that I posted to be in error, on the NHS / climate / education etc, then you would have done so by now. Which accounts for playing the man not the ball.
Our opinions may differ, that's a different matter.
Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 31st August 22:07
don4l said:
The only small problem with your argument is that the people of Ireland feel that they benefit from Apple's investment.
The bit that you seem unable to grasp, is that everyone in Ireland feels that they gain from Apple's investment.
This is a battle that the EU cannot win.
The people of Ireland need to decide whether they benefit more from Apple or the EU. It is fairly obvious that the people of Ireland feel they benefit from the profits Apple make in the entire EU. Its a nice if somewhat dubious deal they have made with Apple. The bit that you seem unable to grasp, is that everyone in Ireland feels that they gain from Apple's investment.
This is a battle that the EU cannot win.
Would Apple be so willing to base in Ireland if Ireland was not part of the EU? The people of Ireland need to be careful what they wish for?
The EU hold the cards on this one. Could the EU stop the profits of Apple from the other 27 member countries going into the Irish coffers and suspiciously low individual corporation tax?
Mike
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