Penge police pursuit deaths
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
rscott said:
Doesn't the US have a 3 strikes law designed to act as a similar deterrent?
It does. That must be why it has such a low crime rate. 
Then check crime figures and prison rates in most continental countries.
We incarcerate the wrong people. There is much that is wrong with the UK's penal system, it not working on most levels, but it is nice to know that at least one other country does it worse.
Our problem is that we won't go with the evidence. Politicians are controlled by press in this. All research shows we've got to wrong. Improvement is simple. Copy those countries that do it better. There's enough of them around.
I'm one for much harsher sentences for some crimes and also reducing the number inside.
Derek Smith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
rscott said:
Doesn't the US have a 3 strikes law designed to act as a similar deterrent?
It does. That must be why it has such a low crime rate. Then check crime figures and prison rates in most continental countries.
We incarcerate the wrong people. There is much that is wrong with the UK's penal system, it not working on most levels, but it is nice to know that at least one other country does it worse.
Our problem is that we won't go with the evidence. Politicians are controlled by press in this. All research shows we've got to wrong. Improvement is simple. Copy those countries that do it better. There's enough of them around.
I'm one for much harsher sentences for some crimes and also reducing the number inside.
The British public aren't remotely interested in crime reduction or rehabilitation, they just want to punish for revenge.
Is there anything wrong with revenge?
The law is the law there to protect the law abiding. you have a few scrotes in the mix. put em away. the three strikes is more than enough to filter the career criminal. once identified then deal with them appropriately.
I get fed up with this give everyone a chance its the fault of society, its the fault of the parents its the fault of.... stop please just stop it. the hand that the blood covered knife is in is whos fault it is. Thats the crux. Get that straight and understood then its not such a wrench to sort it out.
All those folks waiting on organs ? hey ho we have a source to sort out those using organs harvested from those that well cant be trusted in society.
The law is the law there to protect the law abiding. you have a few scrotes in the mix. put em away. the three strikes is more than enough to filter the career criminal. once identified then deal with them appropriately.
I get fed up with this give everyone a chance its the fault of society, its the fault of the parents its the fault of.... stop please just stop it. the hand that the blood covered knife is in is whos fault it is. Thats the crux. Get that straight and understood then its not such a wrench to sort it out.
All those folks waiting on organs ? hey ho we have a source to sort out those using organs harvested from those that well cant be trusted in society.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Exactly right. That's the point I was making with my sarcastic US low crime rate line. We put many of the wrong people in prison and we do precious little to turn their lives around whilst they are in there.
The British public aren't remotely interested in crime reduction or rehabilitation, they just want to punish for revenge.
Sorry, I should not have quoted you. I knew what you meant. The 3 strikes rule is crude and unjust. Cruel as well. There's an awful lot on it on the internet. There are many countries that have a better, cheaper and more just system than the US. And us.The British public aren't remotely interested in crime reduction or rehabilitation, they just want to punish for revenge.
The research is clear enough for anyone. Except newspaper editors.
Derek Smith said:
Sorry, I should not have quoted you. I knew what you meant. The 3 strikes rule is crude and unjust. Cruel as well. There's an awful lot on it on the internet. There are many countries that have a better, cheaper and more just system than the US. And us.
The research is clear enough for anyone. Except newspaper editors.
Is the 3 strike rule cruel?The research is clear enough for anyone. Except newspaper editors.
If chasing cars through residential areas is considered so dangerous the cops wont chase crims then the puhishment for the offence should be escalated to a level that reflects that.
The problem with the liberal approach is that it results too often in nothing/too little being done to address a problem, which is bad for everyone, including the perps.
The problem with the liberal approach is that it results too often in nothing/too little being done to address a problem, which is bad for everyone, including the perps.
There is a lot of evidence online with regards to the result of that bit of legislation.
Ido not begrudge anyone an opinion but I doubt many have gone through the evidence for a more sensible system. We could have one that is more effective, cheaper and which lowers recidivism or rather we won't. Other countries manage it better than us but no government will grasp the nettle.
There are a number of penal reform groups. The evidence is there. We could improve the lifestyle of us all but we will not as people will neither accept nor even read the evidence. So we all have to suffer. Not mention pay more for an inferior service.
I've sent a number of people to prison. About 30% were life's inadequate one way or another. With a bit of help they could be diverted.
But very few people give a monkey's.
Ido not begrudge anyone an opinion but I doubt many have gone through the evidence for a more sensible system. We could have one that is more effective, cheaper and which lowers recidivism or rather we won't. Other countries manage it better than us but no government will grasp the nettle.
There are a number of penal reform groups. The evidence is there. We could improve the lifestyle of us all but we will not as people will neither accept nor even read the evidence. So we all have to suffer. Not mention pay more for an inferior service.
I've sent a number of people to prison. About 30% were life's inadequate one way or another. With a bit of help they could be diverted.
But very few people give a monkey's.
Derek Smith said:
There is a lot of evidence online with regards to the result of that bit of legislation.
Ido not begrudge anyone an opinion but I doubt many have gone through the evidence for a more sensible system. We could have one that is more effective, cheaper and which lowers recidivism or rather we won't. Other countries manage it better than us but no government will grasp the nettle.
There are a number of penal reform groups. The evidence is there. We could improve the lifestyle of us all but we will not as people will neither accept nor even read the evidence. So we all have to suffer. Not mention pay more for an inferior service.
I've sent a number of people to prison. About 30% were life's inadequate one way or another. With a bit of help they could be diverted.
But very few people give a monkey's.
What's the alternative, in your view?Ido not begrudge anyone an opinion but I doubt many have gone through the evidence for a more sensible system. We could have one that is more effective, cheaper and which lowers recidivism or rather we won't. Other countries manage it better than us but no government will grasp the nettle.
There are a number of penal reform groups. The evidence is there. We could improve the lifestyle of us all but we will not as people will neither accept nor even read the evidence. So we all have to suffer. Not mention pay more for an inferior service.
I've sent a number of people to prison. About 30% were life's inadequate one way or another. With a bit of help they could be diverted.
But very few people give a monkey's.
Warby80 said:
Why is it cruel?
Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
In the US it mainly targets the very poor or the young and stupid. So a kid who isn't too bright gets done for graffiti, then being a passenger in a stolen car, and then shoplifting or a fight on a street corner, and goes to jail for 25 years. Whilst murderers, rapists, paedos, Wall St crooks etc find themselves doing a quarter of that because it wasn't their 3rd offence. Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
TwigtheWonderkid said:
In the US it mainly targets the very poor or the young and stupid. So a kid who isn't too bright gets done for graffiti, then being a passenger in a stolen car, and then shoplifting or a fight on a street corner, and goes to jail for 25 years. Whilst murderers, rapists, paedos, Wall St crooks etc find themselves doing a quarter of that because it wasn't their 3rd offence.
^This, pretty much sums up the unintended consequences of a 'falt' 3 strikes rule.however, I would argue that a 3 strike (or something similar) for serious offences, burglary, assault, rape etc. would be fair on society and criminal alike. The police seem to spend far too much time chasing and locking up the same (few) individuals.
Digga said:
however, I would argue that a 3 strike (or something similar) for serious offences, burglary, assault, rape etc. would be fair on society and criminal alike. The police seem to spend far too much time chasing and locking up the same (few) individuals.
I'll always remember a Labour MP on QT talking about when crime dropped, they were keeping the hardcore recidivists locked up. She argued against her data (I think) a bit later, but it was salient.TwigtheWonderkid said:
Warby80 said:
Why is it cruel?
Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
In the US it mainly targets the very poor or the young and stupid. Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
After serial offending and repeated success in the voluntary prison entry test, the needs of the many outweigh the supposed needs of the thuggish few.
After all, uneducated-by-choice (and faking bad) can easily be misdiagnosed as stupid, poor on paper can still mask hidden ill-gotten gains stashed away, and age is ignored by the perpetrators when their knife goes in or during rape or whatever else.
The factors mentioned are also an insult to the many folk who are actually poor, not very clever and not above an arbitrary age who nevertheless remain salt-of-the-earth types who abide by laws.
Excuses, basically.
ruggedscotty said:
Is there anything wrong with revenge?
There is if the desire to seek revenge means that as a society we overlook better ways to prevent further crimes.The focus must be on whatever prevents the crimes from happening, or at least repeat offending, otherwise what's the point? (Well, apart from revenge that is).
I know it's easy for me to sit here and type this, but if I were burgled then I really would hope that I'd have the intelligence to see that it would be better if the culprit received whatever interventions (proper drugs rehab for example) stop them doing it again. Surely that's better than sending them down for a few years, then releasing them into society without any support and then they do the same again to some other innocent person?
turbobloke said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Warby80 said:
Why is it cruel?
Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
In the US it mainly targets the very poor or the young and stupid. Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
It really isn't, unless you're another of the professionally offended brigade.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
turbobloke said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Warby80 said:
Why is it cruel?
Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
In the US it mainly targets the very poor or the young and stupid. Its nice and easy to understand, aslong as you stop breaking the law after the first strike then there is no problem, you even get a second chance! After that its tough luck…
It really isn't, unless you're another of the professionally offended brigade.
Thank goodness you weren't perpetuating the misguided idea that repeat offenders of the poor/thick/youth categories are 'victims of society' rather than their own serial bad decisions, given that their salt-of-the-earth & law-abiding counterparts who were dealt the same hand in life manage to stay out of police radar and out of prison. Those factors are no excuse.
Having had the pleasure of reviewing education provision in HMYOI and HMP (paid-for business contract) one of the stand-out features from many tens of conversations with young offenders and adult prisoners around the nature and effectiveness of prison ed is that it has little value in the eyes of those detained, in the eyes of many prison staff (except for the first and second tier managers) while planning for reoffending is endemic with considerable thought and resources going into it.
The most important feature of the ed wings I saw was that time was blocked in e.g. 3 hour units to minimise prisoner movement and reduce security risks / hassle to staff. The idea of the prison customer base being capable of sustaining concentration for 3 minutes never mind 3 hours was curious to say the least. The key janglers regarded it as a joke.
I didn't get the chance to discuss matters with lifers, so it must be these types who end up doing OU degrees in Underwater Basketweaving, Law, etc. Even so, being out of circulation for 15+ years is a good thing for the sons and daughters of gentlefolk outside, regardless of how those in custody spend their time.
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