Penge police pursuit deaths

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

speedyguy said:

dondadda said:

If it was just a stolen car, then there is absolutely no excuse for chasing stealing it

Hope that helps you understand

Just seen the car involved - no more than couple of grands (if that)worth of hatchback which would probably have been recovered eventually anyway. This was in effect a fairly low value theft If this had been a couple of grands worth of camera from Currys and an uninsured car had been used in the theft would this pursuit be authorised? Doubt it very much. I was involved in some cracking un-regulated chases over the years often finishing in absolute mayhem..and for what - a few quids worth of car or motorbike.
If there are no aggravating factors - eg the cars fleeing from a serious crime scene, then these chases in busy built up areas cant be justified as there are just too many risks to the public - as evidenced today. Stolen markers on PNC cant always be relied on. Stolen markers cover a multitude of sins- wife reports husbands car stolen because hes taken it but she paid for it, cars on finance sold without the authority of the finance company. ownership disputes - theyre not always straightforward simple thefts and certainly many wouldnt warrant a high speed pursuit. Ive had markers removed this week after cars have been recovered by the owner -often weeks ago - and the marker hadnt been removed. Current cops can disagree all they like-but theyll be the ones in the mire when their next pursuit goes wrong

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 18:53

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 18:56

Did you not spot the child abduction element to it? So a little more than a low value theft....

[anonymous-user]

There are lots of cars out there with incorrect markers on them.

I was involved in a forced stop and arrested on suspicion of murder because of such an occurrence.

I wouldn't have disobeyed any request to stop or instigated a persuit if the police used that option rather than going for the full balls out stop a dodgy guy aproach based on the false information on the police computer.

So I don't see what false markers has to do with this case, the guy chose to run from the police.

Very sad situation for the people involved.

[Bigends]

Greendubber said:

Bigends said:

speedyguy said:

dondadda said:

If it was just a stolen car, then there is absolutely no excuse for chasing stealing it

Hope that helps you understand

Just seen the car involved - no more than couple of grands (if that)worth of hatchback which would probably have been recovered eventually anyway. This was in effect a fairly low value theft If this had been a couple of grands worth of camera from Currys and an uninsured car had been used in the theft would this pursuit be authorised? Doubt it very much. I was involved in some cracking un-regulated chases over the years often finishing in absolute mayhem..and for what - a few quids worth of car or motorbike.
If there are no aggravating factors - eg the cars fleeing from a serious crime scene, then these chases in busy built up areas cant be justified as there are just too many risks to the public - as evidenced today. Stolen markers on PNC cant always be relied on. Stolen markers cover a multitude of sins- wife reports husbands car stolen because hes taken it but she paid for it, cars on finance sold without the authority of the finance company. ownership disputes - theyre not always straightforward simple thefts and certainly many wouldnt warrant a high speed pursuit. Ive had markers removed this week after cars have been recovered by the owner -often weeks ago - and the marker hadnt been removed. Current cops can disagree all they like-but theyll be the ones in the mire when their next pursuit goes wrong

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 18:53

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 18:56

Did you not spot the child abduction element to it? So a little more than a low value theft....

Havent seen anything about this. The driver was arrested for dangerous driving - no mention of child abduction on the Beeb

[MarshPhantom]

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it, no doubt the resident police haters will blame them instead though.

Wouldn't it have been better to let the car thief go than have two people dead?

[Trabi601]

Meanwhile, somewhere else on PH, someone is whinging that the police didn't follow their car when it was stolen, thus it was never recovered and the thieves never brought to justice.

[Derek Smith]

Bigends said:

Havent seen anything about this. The driver was arrested for dangerous driving - no mention of child abduction on the Beeb

If it was child abduction, and I have no idea of course, there might be reporting restrictions still in force.

[MarshPhantom]

Trabi601 said:

Meanwhile, somewhere else on PH, someone is whinging that the police didn't follow their car when it was stolen, thus it was never recovered and the thieves never brought to justice.

Idiot.

[anonymous-user]

AJL308 said:

A point I have heard made on many occasions from a friend who is an ex copper - "What the fk are the police doing chasing stolen cars? It's a stolen car FFS; the potential consequences (a massive and horrific accident like this) are simply not worth the potential benefit (the recovery of a car and apprehension of the thief)".

If it was indeed a stolen car, that is.

The problem is if you don't pursue then criminals know they can fail to stop with impunity. About 15 years ago Humberside police found this out when they had a 'no pursuit policy' IIRC.

Criminals don't generally drive safely when not being pursued. They generally still present a much greater risk than most drivers on the road.The police attend plenty of RTCs where the car is stolen.

Ultimately there needs to be an on-going risk assessment which includes proportionately as a factor to consider. That comes down to the driver to justify.

[Bigends]

Trabi601 said:

Meanwhile, somewhere else on PH, someone is whinging that the police didn't follow their car when it was stolen, thus it was never recovered and the thieves never brought to justice.

..and nobodys dead or injured over the price of a car

[greygoose]

MarshPhantom said:

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it, no doubt the resident police haters will blame them instead though.

Wouldn't it have been better to let the car thief go than have two people dead?

Should we just let car thieves go free or are there any other crimes that are dangerous to tackle? I am sure the police involved feel terrible about the deaths that resulted but the sole person to blame is the thief who chose to flee.

[Elroy Blue]

Bigends said:

..and nobodys dead or injured over the price of a car

You should nip down the Met and offer your extensive experience, wisdom and clairvoyant skills. I'm sure they will struggle without them.

[pim]

greygoose said:

Should we just let car thieves go free or are there any other crimes that are dangerous to tackle? I am sure the police involved feel terrible about the deaths that resulted but the sole person to blame is the thief who chose to flee.

Yes let some of them go depending on traffic density and pedestrians about.There is no black and white answer to this.
Who is to blame?
Tell that to the family of the deceased who is to blame, all involved in the chase.

[greygoose]

pim said:

greygoose said:

Should we just let car thieves go free or are there any other crimes that are dangerous to tackle? I am sure the police involved feel terrible about the deaths that resulted but the sole person to blame is the thief who chose to flee.

Yes let some of them go depending on traffic density and pedestrians about.There is no black and white answer to this.
Who is to blame?
Tell that to the family of the deceased who is to blame, all involved in the chase.

And if the reports of an abducted child are true, do you just let the car go?

[anonymous-user]

AJL308 said:

A point I have heard made on many occasions from a friend who is an ex copper - "What the fk are the police doing chasing stolen cars? It's a stolen car FFS; the potential consequences (a massive and horrific accident like this) are simply not worth the potential benefit (the recovery of a car and apprehension of the thief)".

If it was indeed a stolen car, that is.

It's not only 'a' stolen car though is it? You let them get away with it and it's hundreds of stolen cars and this st will happen anyway.

[Countdown]

MarshPhantom said:

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it, no doubt the resident police haters will blame them instead though.

Wouldn't it have been better to let the car thief go than have two people dead?

Hindsight is 20:20.

[Sylvaforever]

fblm said:

AJL308 said:

A point I have heard made on many occasions from a friend who is an ex copper - "What the fk are the police doing chasing stolen cars? It's a stolen car FFS; the potential consequences (a massive and horrific accident like this) are simply not worth the potential benefit (the recovery of a car and apprehension of the thief)".

If it was indeed a stolen car, that is.

It's not only 'a' stolen car though is it? You let them get away with it and it's hundreds of stolen cars and this st will happen anyway.

It is anyway.

If, if the police were in hot pursuit at 1400 in a city center/built up area then there better have been a VERY good reason for it and "training" is not one of them.

[Bigends]

Elroy Blue said:

Bigends said:

..and nobodys dead or injured over the price of a car

You should nip down the Met and offer your extensive experience, wisdom and clairvoyant skills. I'm sure they will struggle without them.

Not at all - looks like experienced drivers were involved in this pursuit - it was their choice and nobodys but theirs if they judged the pursuit to be necessary and proportionate. If there are some aggravating factors on the stolen report = vehicle stolen in Burglary/Robbery/used in crime then that may justify a pursuit. The controller would have had that information to hand and will have managed the job accordingly.

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 20:27

[vonuber]

The only person who should be blamed is the driver of the car. He could have stopped at any point before the accident.

[rambo19]

Another problem is the paperwork if police ram a car off the road.

[Derek Smith]

It is all a bit different when it is you who has to justify allowing a pursuit to continue. All of a sudden you have to balance the risks. If the pursuit does result in a death or serious injury, the authorising officer is the one who has to justify it to the complaints department. All instructions to the radio controller had to be on the serial otherwise the AO would be leaving him/herself open to criticism that could not be refuted.

I remember one where a LoS MGBGT was sat on by two officers. The offender got in the car, with his girlfriend and a cot and then drove off. So should the pursuit be allowed to continue after the vehicle failed to stop for police?

The answer to that one is straightforward enough but what about a robbery where the offender, who was on CCTV, drove off in a Fiesta. Should the police continue when the car was being driven dangerously deliberately?

It is a difficult job weighing risk against result. It is easy enough to suggest that letting one car drive off is giving a green light to car thieves, but it does go a bit deeper than that.

It is neither black nor white. There is no way anyone can draw a line in the sand. If someone is injured then the decision to allow the pursuit was wrong. The only question is whether the AO is in the frame. A rhetorical question of course.