Penge police pursuit deaths

[anonymous-user]

Sylvaforever said:

fblm said:

AJL308 said:

A point I have heard made on many occasions from a friend who is an ex copper - "What the fk are the police doing chasing stolen cars? It's a stolen car FFS; the potential consequences (a massive and horrific accident like this) are simply not worth the potential benefit (the recovery of a car and apprehension of the thief)".

If it was indeed a stolen car, that is.

It's not only 'a' stolen car though is it? You let them get away with it and it's hundreds of stolen cars and this st will happen anyway.

It is anyway.

If, if the police were in hot pursuit at 1400 in a city center/built up area then there better have been a VERY good reason for it and "training" is not one of them.

You think if you never chase thefts will go up or down?
You think car thieves drive safely when they aren't being chased?
If the number of thefts goes up does the number of 'un-chased' accidents go up or down?
If your policy is to give up the chase if the driver becomes too dangerous does that encourage them to drive more dangerously or not?

Personally I don't understand why there isn't a much more serious penalty for making a run for it, the car can be a deadly weapon and they are using it to resist arrest...

[Blue Oval84]

fblm said:

You think if you never chase thefts will go up or down?
You think car thieves drive safely when they aren't being chased?
If the number of thefts goes up does the number of 'un-chased' accidents go up or down?
If your policy is to give up the chase if the driver becomes too dangerous does that encourage them to drive more dangerously or not?

Personally I don't understand why there isn't a much more serious penalty for making a run for it, the car can be a deadly weapon and they are using it to resist arrest...

^This

The Police aren't chasing it solely to recover the car, more often than not it's worthless, they're chasing it to catch a fking criminal and put them in court.

If the Police don't chase these people and catch them then they'll do it again and again. When they're doing it uninterrupted they'll no doubt run plenty of people over and people will ask "why didn't the Police stop them?"

To take the logic of the "don't chase them" brigade a bit further, perhaps we should also not chase someone who robbed a bank if they try to get away in a car, it's only money after all? Maybe someone who's just done a murder, after all, you can't bring the victim back and chasing the offender may hurt someone.

fk it, let's just say that you can do any crime you want but if you manage to get in a car before they catch you then you're laughing.

[Bigends]

Blue Oval84 said:

fblm said:

You think if you never chase thefts will go up or down?
You think car thieves drive safely when they aren't being chased?
If the number of thefts goes up does the number of 'un-chased' accidents go up or down?
If your policy is to give up the chase if the driver becomes too dangerous does that encourage them to drive more dangerously or not?

Personally I don't understand why there isn't a much more serious penalty for making a run for it, the car can be a deadly weapon and they are using it to resist arrest...

^This

The Police aren't chasing it solely to recover the car, more often than not it's worthless, they're chasing it to catch a fking criminal and put them in court.

If the Police don't chase these people and catch them then they'll do it again and again. When they're doing it uninterrupted they'll no doubt run plenty of people over and people will ask "why didn't the Police stop them?"

To take the logic of the "don't chase them" brigade a bit further, perhaps we should also not chase someone who robbed a bank if they try to get away in a car, it's only money after all? Maybe someone who's just done a murder, after all, you can't bring the victim back and chasing the offender may hurt someone.

fk it, let's just say that you can do any crime you want but if you manage to get in a car before they catch you then you're laughing.

Forensic examination of recovered stolen cars plus some ANPR imaging evidence leads to more arrests and convictions of car thieves than those caught following pursuits..and no they dont all get burnt out or bleached after theyve been dumped

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 21:50

[AJL308]

Derek Smith said:

Bigends said:

Havent seen anything about this. The driver was arrested for dangerous driving - no mention of child abduction on the Beeb

If it was child abduction, and I have no idea of course, there might be reporting restrictions still in force.

R2 news also said arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving. No mention of any abduction.

There aren't any 'reporting restrictions' that would prevent the reporting of an abduction that I'm aware of unless a court orders same. There are certain restrictions now that "proceedings are active" which means an arrest has been made

[Dr Doofenshmirtz]

In a few years time Drones will 'chase' people safely (well, observe from on high) - The tech is pretty much there now. There's certainly no need for expensive police helicopters any more.
Police chasing cars through the streets is fraught with danger, always has been.

[Blue Oval84]

Bigends said:

Forensic examination of recovered stolen cars plus some ANPR imaging evidence leads to more arrests and convictions of car thieves than those caught following pursuits

So you're saying that in this brave new "no pursuit" world, all I'll need to get away with some top quality criminality is a mask and a box of matches for when I've finished with my untouchable getaway car?

[greygoose]

AJL308 said:

Derek Smith said:

Bigends said:

Havent seen anything about this. The driver was arrested for dangerous driving - no mention of child abduction on the Beeb

If it was child abduction, and I have no idea of course, there might be reporting restrictions still in force.

R2 news also said arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving. No mention of any abduction.

There aren't any 'reporting restrictions' that would prevent the reporting of an abduction that I'm aware of unless a court orders same. There are certain restrictions now that "proceedings are active" which means an arrest has been made

There aren't any court proceedings yet though, it is just the initial arrest, there could be further charges when the person appears in court.

[Bigends]

Blue Oval84 said:

Bigends said:

Forensic examination of recovered stolen cars plus some ANPR imaging evidence leads to more arrests and convictions of car thieves than those caught following pursuits

So you're saying that in this brave new "no pursuit" world, all I'll need to get away with some top quality criminality is a mask and a box of matches for when I've finished with my untouchable getaway car?

Already edited that onto my last reply - no..they dont all get torched or bleached after theyve been dumped we still get plenty of arrests on forensics

[Blue Oval84]

Bigends said:

Already edited that onto my last reply - no..they dont all get torched or bleached after theyve been dumped we still get plenty of arrests on forensics

I'm sure you do, but imagine a world where every criminal knows you won't chase a car. I'd wager you'd see the clever ones who want to do proper crime (as opposed to thick ones who want a quick joy ride) would feel very emboldened and they wouldn't forget to torch it.

[AJL308]

greygoose said:

AJL308 said:

Derek Smith said:

Bigends said:

Havent seen anything about this. The driver was arrested for dangerous driving - no mention of child abduction on the Beeb

If it was child abduction, and I have no idea of course, there might be reporting restrictions still in force.

R2 news also said arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving. No mention of any abduction.

There aren't any 'reporting restrictions' that would prevent the reporting of an abduction that I'm aware of unless a court orders same. There are certain restrictions now that "proceedings are active" which means an arrest has been made

There aren't any court proceedings yet though, it is just the initial arrest, there could be further charges when the person appears in court.

Reporting restrictions kick-in when someone is arrested. There are only certain things that can be reported in the interests of a fair trial. It's the Contempt of Court Act mostly but the Children and Young Persons Act and others play a part depending on the nature of the offence, people involved, etc.

Other half is a reporter so I hear a lot of this.

[PorkInsider]

Bigends said:

Already edited that onto my last reply - no..they dont all get torched or bleached after theyve been dumped we still get plenty of arrests on forensics

Does the fact that they don't all get torched go hand-in-hand with the fact that many are chased and so the scrotes are desperate to abandon the vehicle asap?

If the scrotes know they won't get chased they'll also know they've got time to torch the vehicle, no?

[Bigends]

PorkInsider said:

Bigends said:

Already edited that onto my last reply - no..they dont all get torched or bleached after theyve been dumped we still get plenty of arrests on forensics

Does the fact that they don't all get torched go hand-in-hand with the fact that many are chased and so the scrotes are desperate to abandon the vehicle asap?

If the scrotes know they won't get chased they'll also know they've got time to torch the vehicle, no?

Not always - cars just get dumped when theyve finished with them or get called in by suspicious residents who dont recognise the car parked outside for the last week - they dont all get hammered around at around at speed if the drivers dont want to draw attention to themselves and hang on to the car for a while especially if its being used as a pool car in crime on a variety of false plates - the options are endless

[Elroy Blue]

Blue Oval84 said:

I'm sure you do, but imagine a world where every criminal knows you won't chase a car. I'd wager you'd see the clever ones who want to do proper crime (as opposed to thick ones who want a quick joy ride) would feel very emboldened and they wouldn't forget to torch it.

Look at the pursuit policy regarding mopeds (you can't) and look at what type of vehicle is used by gangs in everything from bag snatches to major jewellery robberies. No coincidence at al.

[turbobloke]

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it...

Exactly.

Causing death by dangeous driving, that's going to be a custodial is it not?

[powerstroke]

I don't think the police have the skils or cars suitable for ending pursuits, you only have to watch the UK police camera action programs to see scrotes in clapped out cars which should have been rammed off the road miles ago when they failed to stop ,not followed round built up areas until they crash or kill or injure an innocent 3rd party or damage property..

[MarshPhantom]

turbobloke said:

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it...

Exactly.

Causing death by dangeous driving, that's going to be a custodial is it not?

So you don't have a problem with lives being put at risk over a stolen car?

[Pesty]

Bigends said:

Forensic examination of recovered stolen cars plus some ANPR imaging evidence leads to more arrests and convictions of car thieves than those caught following pursuits..and no they dont all get burnt out or bleached after theyve been dumped

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 31st August 21:50

Does it have you any stats on that.

Me hello police I've done the panel they ripped off to,get the ignition and it's got a great big row of fingerprints on the back

Police : oh we don't do that any more for stolen cars here is your crime number

[Digga]

MarshPhantom said:

turbobloke said:

greygoose said:

Only person to blame in my view is the person who stole the car and crashed it...

Exactly.

Causing death by dangeous driving, that's going to be a custodial is it not?

So you don't have a problem with lives being put at risk over a stolen car?

I do. I have a massive problem. People who steal cars are dealt with far too leniently in this country, for one reason; we don't currently have enough places to lock up all our criminals. IMHO, stealing someone else's car is one of the most selfish, dangerous and anti-social acts a citizen can commit. The effect on those who car - and often sole means of transport for them and their family - can be huge, aside from the safety issues of jumping in a vehicle which, for all you know, could have just been parked up because a major safety issue had been detected.

The police didn't steal the car, they didn't make the situation, they were just there on hand to deal with it the best they could. The courts need to start handing out far stiffer sentences for car theft and, where a death is involved, the penalty should be draconian. There needs to be a deterrent, because there clearly is not one right now.

[Jonesy23]

MarshPhantom said:

So you don't have a problem with lives being put at risk over a stolen car?

You're making assumptions and choosing a very narrow issue; a stolen car that isn't already being driven in a way that causes a risk. You're just looking at it as straight theft of property.

What if it is being driven recklessly? Do you just wait for them to get bored?

Or what if it's being used for other crime? Do you just let people drive off?

It's almost like you're arguing that the law abiding are the only ones the police should deal with and actual criminals should be ignored because there might be a risk. Even if that risk is no different from what exists without the police involvement.

As for the current situation around pursuits of mopeds and bikes; if you choose to put yourself at risk by your riding that is your problem, concern about injury to the rider shouldn't be a reason to let them go. After all there is a shortage of organ donors...

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Digga said:

The police didn't steal the car, they didn't make the situation, they were just there on hand to deal with it the best they could.

Given that 2 innocent people ended up dead, I think it's only right that an investigation takes place to see if that's what they did. Did they deal with it as best they could?

We don't know the facts yet. Was it a straight forward car theft, was it not even theft but perhaps the car flagged up on ANPR, was it an IS backed terrorist on his way to blow up hundreds? Let's wait and see.

If 2 people are dead because the car had no insurance, then serious questions need to be asked of the police. If it's an IS terrorist, then less so.