Can I do 70 here?

[Biker 1]

Probably a dumb question so go easy on me, but do the following count as dual carriageways & therefore 70mph limit:

No central reservation on A25:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2612677,0.037514...

This section of A27 does have a central reservation:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8610877,0.034592...

[Atomic12C]

Not dual carriageway, therefore looks like 60mph or whatever the posted limit is. (But not 70mph).

A quick way to tell the speed limit of a road is often to look at a side junction.
If no speed limit signs then the road will be NSL, if there are signs then it will be what ever is on them.

[Cat]

Biker 1 said:

Probably a dumb question so go easy on me, but do the following count as dual carriageways & therefore 70mph limit:

No central reservation on A25:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2612677,0.037514...

This section of A27 does have a central reservation:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8610877,0.034592...

Neither is a dual carriageway.

The first has no physical central reservation between the traffic in each direction so is single carriageway regardless of the number of lanes in each direction

In the second the divide is a traffic island (intended to stop traffic turning across the oncoming traffic to enter the properties at the side of the road) as opposed to a central reservation.

If the road is NSL then both are 60 limits for cars and motorcycles.

Cat

[xjay1337]

60mph limit unless seperated as in dual carriageway :-)

On the a303 there's a camera on an uphill bit (the first passing place in about 5 miles on a road often used by Lorries).

Plenty of people have been caught out for doing 70. Bit naughty IMO

[brman]

Are you confused as to what a dual carriageway is? The highway code is clear.....
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/gener...

So it needs to have a central reservation. your first link does not but the 2nd does. As to the speed limit, that obviously depends on other signs etc.

[brman]

Cat said:

Neither is a dual carriageway.

In the second the divide is a traffic island (intended to stop traffic turning across the oncoming traffic to enter the properties at the side of the road) as opposed to a central reservation.

Are you saying that because you know the road or from that picture? Because from the picture I cannot see any signs that it is not a continuous central reservation (ignoring the crossing point, which I think I can).
Regardless, given the visible length of the central reservation I think it is fair to class this section as dual carriageway because, well... it is according to the definition in the highway code

[Biker 1]

brman said:

Are you saying that because you know the road or from that picture? Because from the picture I cannot see any signs that it is not a continuous central reservation (ignoring the crossing point, which I think I can).
Regardless, given the visible length of the central reservation I think it is fair to class this section as dual carriageway because, well... it is according to the definition in the highway code

That's pretty much what I thought; I ride the A27 regularly & have yet to see a police car to test out the theory.... If it is indeed classed as dual carriageway, does that mean 60mph in one direction & 70 in the other? Presumably there is a minimum length of central reservation before it is actually classed as a central reservation??

[Cat]

brman said:

Are you saying that because you know the road or from that picture? Because from the picture I cannot see any signs that it is not a continuous central reservation (ignoring the crossing point, which I think I can).
Regardless, given the visible length of the central reservation I think it is fair to class this section as dual carriageway because, well... it is according to the definition in the highway code

If the stretch of road was a dual carriageway then the turn left sign would have a supplementary "Dual Carriageway" plate and there would be a hazard warning signs for the end of the dual carriageway section. Neither are present therefore not a dual carriageway.

Cat

[RogueTrooper]

What Cat said. The island pictured is signed as a "keep left" traffic island and is longer than normal. The road is not signed as becoming a dual carriageway at either end of the island.

[FiF]

Sorry just deleted my earlier reply and try again.

Actually in this case I agree with Cat, whilst as a snapshot it appears to be a central reservation, having scrolled up and down the road on Google maps, the permanent construction in the centre of the road is very discontinuous, sufficiently so to be classed as a series of traffic islands.

Problem is that whilst there's a legal definition for central reservation, there is no legal definition for traffic island. Guidelines in Design Manual, but guidelines only. Otherwise the limit on that bit of road would yo-yo from 70 to 60 every few hundred metres, which is ridiculous.

I would not chance it, of course a court could decide.

Just to add, the requirement to sign it as dual carriageway at each end always was advisory only, unless it has changed in the various revisions.

[wiggy001]

Highway Code said:

A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.

So I'd say the second one is a dual carriageway and therefore 70mph unless signs say otherwise.

[Biker 1]

FiF said:

Sorry just deleted my earlier reply and try again.
the limit on that bit of road would yo-yo from 70 to 60 every few hundred metres, which is ridiculous.

I would not chance it, of course a court could decide.

Just to add, the requirement to sign it as dual carriageway at each end always was advisory only, unless it has changed in the various revisions.

Hmmmm.... There don't appear to be 'dual carriageway ahead' or similar signs in this neck of the woods, even at the point where the 'actual' dual carriageway begins:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8662368,0.024315...

[speedking31]

FiF said:

Otherwise the limit on that bit of road would yo-yo from 70 to 60 every few hundred metres, which is ridiculous.

Not a fan of smart motorways then

[FiF]

Biker 1 said:

Hmmmm.... There don't appear to be 'dual carriageway ahead' or similar signs in this neck of the woods, even at the point where the 'actual' dual carriageway begins:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8662368,0.024315...

Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to in that link as actual dual carriageway.

To clarify what I was saying is that aiui Dual Carriageway ahead signs are not mandatory, but the signs referred to by Cat and others are, namely diagram 520 in the Traffic signs regs, and the small plate with the text Dual Carriageway below the circular blue must proceed to the left sign. Scrolling up and down that road on Google maps none of those signs are present, thus not DC.

[FiF]

speedking31 said:

FiF said:

Otherwise the limit on that bit of road would yo-yo from 70 to 60 every few hundred metres, which is ridiculous.

Not a fan of smart motorways then

LOL. Been a phone in about smart motorways on the local BBC station this morning, had to keep myself in check over the 20 mph on a completely empty M42.

[brman]

Biker 1 said:

That's pretty much what I thought; I ride the A27 regularly & have yet to see a police car to test out the theory.... If it is indeed classed as dual carriageway, does that mean 60mph in one direction & 70 in the other?

I am assuming you are referring to the fact there is only one lane the other side. AFAIK that has no affect on the classification as a dual carriageway and the speed limit.

As to the other points others have raised,the fact that there is no sign designating it as a dual carriageway does not stop it being one in my view and I can find no legal definition that would disagree with me.
However, having looking up and down the road on street view I agree, it is clearly designed as a barrier for that junction, not as a dual carriageway. I think you would have to be pretty silly to want to test that in court all for the chance of doing an extra 10mph for 100 yards.....

[TooMany2cvs]

wiggy001 said:

Highway Code said:

A dual carriageway is a road which has a central reservation to separate the carriageways.

So I'd say the second one is a dual carriageway and therefore 70mph unless signs say otherwise.

Look again at the Streetview. The link provided is a VERY carefully chosen position. You can see the end of the island ahead, immediately after the no U-turn sign. Rotate 180deg. You can just about see the end of the island, just after the other no U-turn sign. That's an island in the middle of a single carriageway, with the sole job of prevent raging wuckfits from turning right out of the service road just next to the camera position. If you're in any doubt, then zoom out to the aerial view, and it becomes VERY obvious...

[Biker 1]

FiF said:

Sorry I'm not sure what you are referring to in that link as actual dual carriageway.

Sorry, you need to scroll around a bit, but the picture is southbound A26, where it joins the A27 at a roundabout. The 'actual' A27 dual carriageway is the second exit (right/Westbound towards Brighton), the 'probably not' A27 dual carriageway is the first exit (left/Eastbound towards Eastbourne)....

[Big E 118]

Be careful on the A25 section posted that heads up from The Grasshopper. Over the crest they've recently reduced the road to a 30mph by the golf course and I hear a few locals are campaigning for Police to start checking speeds as people aren't slowing down.

You come up over the hill in the (not a dual carriageway) overtaking lane and then straight into a 30mph before getting to the residential area where it becomes a 40.....

[Biker 1]

TooMany2cvs said:

Look again at the Streetview. The link provided is a VERY carefully chosen position.

Not on purpose, although I concede it appears that way...