Discussion
El stovey said:
May criticises and points out a lack of trust in big business and executive pay. Lots of talk about fairer society and centrist politics.
Is she a bit left of centre for the right wingers here?
Depends where your centre is. Social responsibility is not an automatic anethema to a sucessfull business, whatever brothers grim nonsense the psuedo left like to peddle. We neednless polarisation of welfare v profit.Is she a bit left of centre for the right wingers here?
loafer123 said:
Do you think he dresses badly on purpose?
It is hard to think of another public figure with so little awareness of image, and before anyone says anything, yes, that is a bad thing.
^^^^It is hard to think of another public figure with so little awareness of image, and before anyone says anything, yes, that is a bad thing.
Look everyone, another shallow voter. Shock horror, someone doesn't dress like everybody else!!! Still, if you really want to go down that route then look at the state of the PM.
loafer123 said:
alfie2244 said:
Do you think he dresses badly on purpose?It is hard to think of another public figure with so little awareness of image, and before anyone says anything, yes, that is a bad thing.
Dr Jekyll said:
The premise, I seem to recall a leave/stay referendum in about 1975.
True, there was. In 1975 there was a referendum for continued presence in what was then the EC which was a euphemism for another title of innocuous sounding trade agreements. It was a non-binding vote on something which was very different to what is now the EU. The word Union was never used until very much later. In its present form the EU is a purely political organisation with Trade used as a fig leaf to cover its underlying purpose. Semantics? Maybe, but the political absorption of a Sovereign State by subterfuge is a very different thing to what was started. Thorodin said:
Esseesse said:
^^^ This.
'Will of the people', what a crock of st.
What about the 'will of the people' for the decades we've been going headlong into further EU integration? Or does it only count when it's measured by a referendum?
If you really want to get into that you might want to think again. We went 'in' on a huge lie/scandalous incompetence by and from E. Heath amongst others. There has since been no referendum on leaving up to this one. Successive governments have lied, misled, obfuscated and backtracked ever since. Finally, the people have had enough of the vested interest cobblers from parties and fellow travellers on both sides. I could go on but it's been done a thousand times before, and by those with more skills than me. Finished, and without even one tiny lie, coarse word or insult. 'Will of the people', what a crock of st.
What about the 'will of the people' for the decades we've been going headlong into further EU integration? Or does it only count when it's measured by a referendum?
I'm aware of the things you write about and agree.
El stovey said:
It's not really.
Most referendums on major constitutional change in other countries, require a higher majority than our Brexit vote.
One of the great many mistakes Cameron made in running the referendum (complacency, not involving the EU in the campaign, not making the result water tight, lying about NHS savings) was to make it a simple majority vote,
A narrow victory in something as important as leaving the EU isn't good enough and I say that as someone that voted to leave. It's simply too poor a mandate for a major change.
I suspect whatever the margin needed for "victory" the arguments after would be exactly the same.Most referendums on major constitutional change in other countries, require a higher majority than our Brexit vote.
One of the great many mistakes Cameron made in running the referendum (complacency, not involving the EU in the campaign, not making the result water tight, lying about NHS savings) was to make it a simple majority vote,
A narrow victory in something as important as leaving the EU isn't good enough and I say that as someone that voted to leave. It's simply too poor a mandate for a major change.
Mark Benson said:
In politics there is never a 100% consensus so you have to go with the majority. You can specify how much a majority is needed but in this case it was a 'most votes win it' referendum, rightly or wrongly.
The phrase 'The will of the people' wasn't just coined for the referendum, it's been used for years as a simile for 'What people voted for'. Which in this case was to leave the EU, narrowly but clearly.
What consideration do we give to the losing voters in an election? You didn't get a majority but we'll let you win one in every three votes? Perhaps you'd like to be PM for a couple of months, to make up for losing?
I don't know if anyone here reads this stuff from yougovThe phrase 'The will of the people' wasn't just coined for the referendum, it's been used for years as a simile for 'What people voted for'. Which in this case was to leave the EU, narrowly but clearly.
What consideration do we give to the losing voters in an election? You didn't get a majority but we'll let you win one in every three votes? Perhaps you'd like to be PM for a couple of months, to make up for losing?
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/public-back-b...
If Politics is about pleasing most people, for most of the time, I suppose May is doing a good job. If she was feeling Machiavellian, I am sure she should declare a snap election now, but similarly she seems to be playing that game with a pretty straight bat.
Of course, she will ultimately be judged on outcomes in 2020, but in the meantime, I think she is doing a fair job in difficult circumstances, at the moment.
JawKnee said:
So how do you see yourself 'after a few pints'?Alternatively, just look at the geographical size of little Britain compared to the mighty France/Germany/Spain et al. Then compare the national output of the nations, ask yourself why the whole world is trying to get here. The picture on the right is intended for the morons that think a TV show that mocks everything is funny - are you one of them?
Thorodin said:
So how do you see yourself 'after a few pints'?
Alternatively, just look at the geographical size of little Britain compared to the mighty France/Germany/Spain et al. Then compare the national output of the nations, ask yourself why the whole world is trying to get here. The picture on the right is intended for the morons that think a TV show that mocks everything is funny - are you one of them?
Wow, touched a nerve. Alternatively, just look at the geographical size of little Britain compared to the mighty France/Germany/Spain et al. Then compare the national output of the nations, ask yourself why the whole world is trying to get here. The picture on the right is intended for the morons that think a TV show that mocks everything is funny - are you one of them?
Our economic success has a lot to do with simple, free trading with the Eurozone whilst keeping our own currency and a plentiful supply of labour for businesses to leverage because of immigration. This small country will find it harder to be so competitive without those factors.
Thorodin said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The premise, I seem to recall a leave/stay referendum in about 1975.
True, there was. In 1975 there was a referendum for continued presence in what was then the EC which was a euphemism for another title of innocuous sounding trade agreements. It was a non-binding vote on something which was very different to what is now the EU. The word Union was never used until very much later. In its present form the EU is a purely political organisation with Trade used as a fig leaf to cover its underlying purpose. Semantics? Maybe, but the political absorption of a Sovereign State by subterfuge is a very different thing to what was started. Deptford Draylons said:
Toaster said:
The "will of the people" what hogwash its just a strap line like brexit means brexit !!
17,410,742 people voted to leave, 16,141,241 voted to remain, (4% margin) 12,949,258 didn't vote, 18,604470 cant vote. don't forget we were lied to.....so people voted on a lie
"Britain is open for business".........since when has it been closed most of our manufacturing has been sold or closed, our railways run by overseas companies an example is Abellio run the greater Anglia trains (dutch company just sold 40% to Mitsu), tolls operated by the french. BT now 10% owned by the Germans. Most of our goods are produced globally most notably in China.
So leaving Europe means...........
Interestingly the French did not want us to join way back in 1967 "De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again" http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/n...
What lie did we vote on ?17,410,742 people voted to leave, 16,141,241 voted to remain, (4% margin) 12,949,258 didn't vote, 18,604470 cant vote. don't forget we were lied to.....so people voted on a lie
"Britain is open for business".........since when has it been closed most of our manufacturing has been sold or closed, our railways run by overseas companies an example is Abellio run the greater Anglia trains (dutch company just sold 40% to Mitsu), tolls operated by the french. BT now 10% owned by the Germans. Most of our goods are produced globally most notably in China.
So leaving Europe means...........
Interestingly the French did not want us to join way back in 1967 "De Gaulle says 'non' to Britain - again" http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/n...
JawKnee said:
Wow, touched a nerve.
Our economic success has a lot to do with simple, free trading with the Eurozone whilst keeping our own currency and a plentiful supply of labour for businesses to leverage because of immigration. This small country will find it harder to be so competitive without those factors.
Who says we can't continue to trade with the EU?Our economic success has a lot to do with simple, free trading with the Eurozone whilst keeping our own currency and a plentiful supply of labour for businesses to leverage because of immigration. This small country will find it harder to be so competitive without those factors.
Who said there won't be immigration in the future?
Thorodin said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The premise, I seem to recall a leave/stay referendum in about 1975.
True, there was. In 1975 there was a referendum for continued presence in what was then the EC which was a euphemism for another title of innocuous sounding trade agreements. It was a non-binding vote on something which was very different to what is now the EU. The word Union was never used until very much later. In its present form the EU is a purely political organisation with Trade used as a fig leaf to cover its underlying purpose. Semantics? Maybe, but the political absorption of a Sovereign State by subterfuge is a very different thing to what was started. Given that Free Movement was going to be an insurmountable hurdle, it makes a great deal of sense both for May and our EU counterparts to announce that the UK is leaving the Single Market. Why? Because it gets the brand off the table. Prople won't get stuck on the words "single market". If the UK had managed to negotiate "continued membership of the Single Market with some concessions thrown in" the more knuckle-headed Brexiteers would have seen it as a betrayal, and similarly the more knuckle-headed voters in the rest of the EU would have seen it as unfair special treatment for the UK. May couldn't sell it to the UK, and Merkel, Hollande's successor, et al wouldn't have been able to sell it to their voterd either. Selling the compromise will be easier if it isn't labeled "EU Single Market".
Worth pointing out that May is going to try for a customs union with the EU. That only works if we continue to apply the same tariffs as the EU, the same standards for goods and sevices, etc ... i.e. not only will we not repeal anything right now (which is the purpose of the spectacularly mis-named "great repeal bill"), but we'll have to agree to keep in step with the EU in the future. "Taking back control" ... whatever.
And May's appeal at Davos for people to champion globalisation and consider the danger of people feeling left behind is a demonstration of what she thinks just happened in the UK. I.e. she doesn't see the Brexit vote as a rational, considered act. She sees it primarily as a protest vote driven by fear.
Worth pointing out that May is going to try for a customs union with the EU. That only works if we continue to apply the same tariffs as the EU, the same standards for goods and sevices, etc ... i.e. not only will we not repeal anything right now (which is the purpose of the spectacularly mis-named "great repeal bill"), but we'll have to agree to keep in step with the EU in the future. "Taking back control" ... whatever.
And May's appeal at Davos for people to champion globalisation and consider the danger of people feeling left behind is a demonstration of what she thinks just happened in the UK. I.e. she doesn't see the Brexit vote as a rational, considered act. She sees it primarily as a protest vote driven by fear.
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