Discussion
Adrian W said:
She's a female John Major, no one voted for her, no one will want to vote for her next time, but who else is there
John Major won a general election. I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
dbdb said:
John Major won a general election.
I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
She was, evidently, much derided in the HO, never being able to be found if things got difficult and a decision was required. She'll be under pressure from the right after whatever the result of the negotiations are. She has little/no support on that side, and I find it difficult to work out who her sponsors are. I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
She was voted in as the best of the worst. Next time there will be a candidate from the right, possibly Johnson as he can be manipulated, but probably not for many reasons.
The problem for the tories is that they've got no opposition and that has meant in the past that the various factions - too mixed up to put labels such as left or right on them - will feel their sap rising. Her problem is that whatever the conclusion of the negotiations are, it will leave her open to criticism. Now, the groups will feel, is the time for them to rise up. Or something like that.
There is a vacuum in the middle/left (again a rather vague classification) and like most this one will fill in time. I wonder what it will be. 2020 is a long way off in political terms.
I don't think May's cause was helped by this public information broadcast on behalf of the Murdoch and whoever is in power group. She said nothing.
Derek Smith said:
dbdb said:
John Major won a general election.
I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
She was, evidently, much derided in the HO, never being able to be found if things got difficult and a decision was required. She'll be under pressure from the right after whatever the result of the negotiations are. She has little/no support on that side, and I find it difficult to work out who her sponsors are. I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
She was voted in as the best of the worst. Next time there will be a candidate from the right, possibly Johnson as he can be manipulated, but probably not for many reasons.
The problem for the tories is that they've got no opposition and that has meant in the past that the various factions - too mixed up to put labels such as left or right on them - will feel their sap rising. Her problem is that whatever the conclusion of the negotiations are, it will leave her open to criticism. Now, the groups will feel, is the time for them to rise up. Or something like that.
There is a vacuum in the middle/left (again a rather vague classification) and like most this one will fill in time. I wonder what it will be. 2020 is a long way off in political terms.
I don't think May's cause was helped by this public information broadcast on behalf of the Murdoch and whoever is in power group. She said nothing.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Anyone think that May will have to resign if the Supreme Court judgement goes against the Government?
She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
No. If she had already taken the action and then the court judgement came out, maybe, but as this won't be the case, and given that no politicians in any of the major parties have any principles these days, she'll just carry on as usual.She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
It would also ruin Boris' plans to become PM and remain so if she went before taking the hit for whatever crap Brexit throws our way!
I foresee her muddling through to the next GE, winning it with a comfortable majority, but not the overwhelming one that Corbyn should be delivering, prompting a coup from which Boris will emerge as new party leader and PM.
In 25 years from now, secret papers will come to light showing that Boris and Corbyn were secretly married in a civil ceremony in Chad in the early 90s, and have been planning all of this together ever since...
Sylvaforever said:
Strange then Derek that you lauded her as the remainers saviour in another thread?
Not sure I ever lauded her. Even if I had, my above post would not have contradicted it. It was merely a description of her problems and not an attack on the woman.Whether she's any cop in the post remains to be seen.
Smith]dbdb said:
Adrian W said:
She's a female John Major, no one voted for her, no one will want to vote for her next time, but who else is there
John Major won a general election. I see her as being more like Gordon Brown and I believe Theresa May to share many of his character flaws - especially the inability to delegate properly, the control-freakery, the inability to make decisions and to chart a clear course and the secretiveness, all traits she shares with Mr Brown - and all of which led to Gordon Brown's premiership unravelling. "From Stalin to Mr Bean".
I believe the same traits will lead to the same outcome for Mrs May. I believe she will suffer a similar fate, that is to be initially popular, to never command events and when things unravel to be the object of derision.
If by some miracle my prayers are answered and Brexit works for us, she will have still have introduced the Snooper's charter - the most egregious piece of legislation enacted by this country in my lifetime. That alone disgusts me. Time will tell, but I believe Theresa May's Conservative party has a real problem keeping hold of its left flank. I am unlikely to vote Conservative again whilst Mrs May is leader. I am sure I am far from alone in this amongst the more Centrist Conservative voters.
king idiotic to not wander in, occupy that ground and put down the deepest roots we can. We spend years fighting to keep it to remain in office, concede it all to Blair's New Labour and then wander around in a Corbynesque wilderness during which energy-saving low Watt nut case IDS becomes leader (can we just pause and consider the abject folly of that?). Finally we get our st together, move back towards the centre ground and win an outright majority. Again, pause and reflect. So, you've won a General Election on a centrist ticket, the traditional main opposition have suffered a life-altering aneurysm and are busily erecting monuments to Mao and Castro, UKIP remain utterly hopeless, and, hilariously (if your sense of humour is sufficiently bleak), the one other sane party in the game has been crucified because they went into coalition with you last time. What do you do with this staggeringly golden opportunity? Answer: come surprisingly close to letting Andrea too-dim-to-realise-she-lied-on-her-CV Leadsom become leader and Prime Minister. It is beyond parody.ATG said:
I agree. What I find most painful is the sheer strategic stupidity of not rallying the troops to occupy the centre ground. The LibDems are still flat on their backs, Labour's sane parliamentary party members still haven't managed to stage a coup and show very little sign of being able to do so. For once the middle ground and all the votes that represents is unoccupied.
What you are missing is that she is trying to occupy the centre-ground, just not a centre ground you recognise.Rather than an obsession with the tenets of modern liberalism her centre ground is improving the lot of the average worker and increasing their stake in society.
A Thatcherite cabinet minister described her last conference speech as 'socialist' and it is rumoured that her own instincts on economic policy are considerable more left wing and interventionist than the Chancellor Phillip Hammond.
It's not a centre ground by any definition. It's a move towards a new kind of populist authoritarianism. And because it is an ambiguous term, by "populist" I mean policies that play easily with the gut instincts and prejudices of your audience with little or no regard for evidence while making no effort to persuade your audience to support your principled positions, nor persuade them to support compromises that benefit a wider section of society. The fact that some of the economic authoritarianism is more left-wing than, say, the more right-wing vapid crap of the grammar school policy doesn't mean they cancel out to leave you on average in the middle.
ATG said:
It's not a centre ground by any definition. It's a move towards a new kind of populist authoritarianism. And because it is an ambiguous term, by "populist" I mean policies that play easily with the gut instincts and prejudices of your audience with little or no regard for evidence while making no effort to persuade your audience to support your principled positions, nor persuade them to support compromises that benefit a wider section of society. The fact that some of the economic authoritarianism is more left-wing than, say, the more right-wing vapid crap of the grammar school policy doesn't mean they cancel out to leave you on average in the middle.
I largely agree with that. One thing both very right wing and very left wing people share in common is an inability to call the Centre ground. That is manifestly obvious in both the Labour party and the Conservative party at the moment. Mrs May seems intent in losing the support of her more liberal minded voters. There are a lot of them. Iain Duncan Smith was unelectable for a reason.ATG said:
It's not a centre ground by any definition. It's a move towards a new kind of populist authoritarianism. And because it is an ambiguous term, by "populist" I mean policies that play easily with the gut instincts and prejudices of your audience with little or no regard for evidence while making no effort to persuade your audience to support your principled positions, nor persuade them to support compromises that benefit a wider section of society. The fact that some of the economic authoritarianism is more left-wing than, say, the more right-wing vapid crap of the grammar school policy doesn't mean they cancel out to leave you on average in the middle.
The problem that many people this country would have with your statement above is what you call "populist authoritarianism" was, in the main, the policies of both the main parties until the 1980s and 1990s.Both of the main parties were then taken over by "liberal" politicians who had a more managerial rather ideological approach to politics, but it does not mean that this is the only approach and that every other approach is wrong.
What you are in effect saying is that there is only one truth and every politician who does not advocate it is wrong. But who defines truth?, do economists?, bearing in mind the kind that carry out the studies, on which so much weight is placed, are usually employed by left leaning academic institutions and are as prone to anyone else of bringing their personal biases into their work.
A far better way IMO is for there to be a battle of ideas rather than accept without question a set of ideas handed down by a Metropolitan oligarchy and this should be done via the political sphere.
What we need therefore is a realignment of politics. One party to stand for open borders, multi-multiculturalism, the curtailment of debate (whether that be in academic institutions or elsewhere) etc.
Another party, which I hope to be the Conservative party, which stands against all of that. Which favours immigration only of the highly skilled who add genuine value, who supports integration over ghettoisation, that always stands up for free speech, that ends the stagnating standards of living of those on low and middle incomes by making sure the state supports their interests rather than that of the elites. Such a party would indeed lose hundreds of thousands of votes from rich metropolitan liberals, but has the potential to gain millions more elsewhere in the country.
Edited by JagLover on Sunday 15th January 07:29
PurpleMoonlight said:
Anyone think that May will have to resign if the Supreme Court judgement goes against the Government?
She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
Not at all. It wasnt Tory plolicy to take us out of Europe. It was to hold a refendum and then go along with what was agreed by the public. She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
williamp said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Anyone think that May will have to resign if the Supreme Court judgement goes against the Government?
She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
Not at all. It wasnt Tory plolicy to take us out of Europe. It was to hold a refendum and then go along with what was agreed by the public. She must have said 100 times that MP's will not get a vote.
She will have lead a Government trying to act unlawfully.
They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
dbdb said:
I largely agree with that. One thing both very right wing and very left wing people share in common is an inability to call the Centre ground. That is manifestly obvious in both the Labour party and the Conservative party at the moment. Mrs May seems intent in losing the support of her more liberal minded voters. There are a lot of them. Iain Duncan Smith was unelectable for a reason.
The realisation by millions of Labour voters that they don't have to vote labour has meant that nobody really knows where the centre ground is any more. The centre ground was a construct of the two main parties' policies, but it's entirely possible that we don't have two main parties any more. MarshPhantom said:
williamp said:
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
Who can blame Cameron for leaving, it isn't as though he didn't make it abundantly clear what a disaster Brexit would be. williamp said:
Not at all. It wasnt Tory plolicy to take us out of Europe. It was to hold a refendum and then go along with what was agreed by the public.
They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
Who can blame Cameron for leaving, it isn't as though he didn't make it very clear what a disaster Brexit would be. Pound has nosedived, we haven't even left yet.They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
williamp said:
Not at all. It wasnt Tory plolicy to take us out of Europe. It was to hold a refendum and then go along with what was agreed by the public.
They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
The didn't and they haven't, but why let facts get in the way.They got into power, and the MP's (all of them) voted 6:1 in favour of the simple in/out referendum which will allow the public to decide.
They allowed us the vote, we voted out. Cameron buggered off and May was left to sort it out. This law suit is saying that MP's need to debate it. in my opinion, they already have...
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