Britain's Jail System

[FredClogs]

Someone said you can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its prisoners, I don't know who, probably Ghandi or some other liberal dogooder type to the left of the likes of Gove and May, Hitler maybe...

Anyway this article shocked me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-377086...

I don't expect much sympathy for the guy killed, his family and child maybe, but should we really be housing 1300 people in a jail even the Victorians thought would be full with 900?

[Smiler.]

I find it difficult to muster sympathy for the lack of welfare for criminals when they are devoid of any towards the victims of their (often repeated) crime.

However I listened to an episode of The Moral Maze a few months back & was surprised at some of the opinions aired. It's quite a complex issue but by far the best way to avoid such conditions is to keep one's nose clean.

[Cerbhd]

I'm not saying the prison system, or what happened to him was right, but was already serving a term for robbery, then hiding guns, what else and how long before he killed someone's son, husband etc.
Sorry, he was obviously a wrongun

[Liokault]

Nothing there about conditions, lots in there about how crap criminals are to each other.

How sad, carry on.

[Liokault]

Nothing there about conditions, lots in there about how crap criminals are to each other.

How sad, carry on.

[stupidbutkeen]

is it also not true that victorian house's are bigger on average than todays?
It would seem the average person in the uk need less space than victorian times.

can anyone say how much less space on average does the average person have now home wise compared to victorian times and how that compares to the prisoners?

[Cerbhd]

Liokault said:

Nothing there about conditions, lots in there about how crap criminals are to each other.

How sad, carry on.

I can't comment on the conditions as I've not seen it first hand, I did say that I wasn't saying that the prison system or what happened to him was right. Appears there is a major problem with weapons and drugs at the prison which the authorities need to get on top of but my opinion still remains that if you live by weapons, drugs, violence then prison is an accepted risk that you take. No one forced him to choose that life

[Willy Nilly]

Smiler. said:

I find it difficult to muster sympathy for the lack of welfare for criminals when they are devoid of any towards the victims of their (often repeated) crime.

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

[ABZ RS6]

Oh dear, what a shame, poor didums.

[kiethton]

Willy Nilly said:

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

But there are a huge chunk that are obviously well past rehabilitation and not up for abiding by the rules of a civilised society.

Bring back the prison ships, the costa Concordia looked in ok shape for the job last time I saw it

[Derek Smith]

There's a lot on the Prison Reform Trust's website.

They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.

I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.

[sidicks]

Derek Smith said:

There's a lot on the Prison Reform Trust's website.

They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.

I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.

In your opinion, is that because there aren't sufficient opportunities for prisoners to improve themselves while inside, or that many choose not to utilise what is available. Or something else?

[Willy Nilly]

kiethton said:

Willy Nilly said:

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

But there are a huge chunk that are obviously well past rehabilitation and not up for abiding by the rules of a civilised society.

Bring back the prison ships, the costa Concordia looked in ok shape for the job last time I saw it

Perhaps they wouldn't be passed rehabilitation if they had been rehabilitated when they first came to the attention of the justice system.

[CoolHands]

Not very nice people are errr not very nice to each other when locked up together. Surprise.

I don't know why prisons are so expensive to build and run. Probably the taxpayer getting ripped off again.

[Finlandia]

Willy Nilly said:

kiethton said:

Willy Nilly said:

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

But there are a huge chunk that are obviously well past rehabilitation and not up for abiding by the rules of a civilised society.

Bring back the prison ships, the costa Concordia looked in ok shape for the job last time I saw it

Perhaps they wouldn't be passed rehabilitation if they had been rehabilitated when they first came to the attention of the justice system.

The soft touch rehabilitation doesn't work here in Sweden.

[Vocal Minority]

FredClogs said:

Someone said you can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its prisoners, I don't know who, probably Ghandi or some other liberal dogooder type to the left of the likes of Gove and May, Hitler maybe...

I presume your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek here..... (For those of you who don't know, it was PH hero Winston Churchill)

The majority of the thread is typical PH in my opinion. Not actual consideration and no thought outside of our privelidged bubble.

Because I don't think 80-90% of people on here know how fking ste life can be for some - of course there are a lot of wronguns in the world.

But that doesn't mean every person who has found them self in jail should be put on the scrap heap.

My best friend was the head of science at an educational prison essentially (in the pre G4S days) and she has some sad stories, but some great ones.

Like one young man who pinched some things (had a bad home life) - some remorseless bd, irredeemable by the 2 second analysis of this place.

Is now a qualified midwife and runs a charity for single fathers (snakes with tits eh boys?). So yes - 'soft touch' can work.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 19th October 23:07

[Trax]

Whilst it may be ok for us to say, well what a shame, scumbags kill a scumbag, the problem is, it only takes a mistake by any one of us, and we could be locked up with them.

We see posts often of normal, i.e. Normal everyday people like us/me/you getting locked up for errors in judgement, minor infringements, and driving offences. If I, heaven forbid, made some mistake in life that got me sent to prison, (think 10p short), then I should not be put at risk when I am not free to go elsewhere. I guess categories of prison may put normal non everyday scumbags in 'safer' prisons, but they are still with the 'real' criminals.

Just food for thought, I am normally happy to say prisoners should be kept in Victorian conditions as a punishment, and get what they deserve, I think they should be safe. I have no idea how they work, but it boggles my mind how a prison cannot be safe, secure and drug free. It's obviously hard to do, but is it just a lack of money, or a lack of will to do what's needed?

[s3fella]

Mrs Bone wants a prison reopened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37706274


She's getting rather infamous at PMQs!!

[Talksteer]

Trax said:

Whilst it may be ok for us to say, well what a shame, scumbags kill a scumbag, the problem is, it only takes a mistake by any one of us, and we could be locked up with them.

We see posts often of normal, i.e. Normal everyday people like us/me/you getting locked up for errors in judgement, minor infringements, and driving offences. If I, heaven forbid, made some mistake in life that got me sent to prison, (think 10p short), then I should not be put at risk when I am not free to go elsewhere. I guess categories of prison may put normal non everyday scumbags in 'safer' prisons, but they are still with the 'real' criminals.

Just food for thought, I am normally happy to say prisoners should be kept in Victorian conditions as a punishment, and get what they deserve, I think they should be safe. I have no idea how they work, but it boggles my mind how a prison cannot be safe, secure and drug free. It's obviously hard to do, but is it just a lack of money, or a lack of will to do what's needed?

Actually the way prison works is that initially they place you in the closest available space they have in the general population. Hence as a non violent white collar prisoner you could be in with some dodgy types.

I think if a space alien was to descend to earth and be told that when people transgression our laws and customs we just lock them in a cell a great expense for a time approximately in proportion to how far from the norms of behaviour their action was they'd probably ask...... why?

I don't think that from a pure logical perspective jail makes much sense. Not least that as a punishment and deterrent it's effect is inversely proportional to how well adjusted the person is.

I think protection, rehabilitation and punishment should be separated. People should be locked up only to protect people or as part of a measure to enforce rehabilitation. For punishment we should be looking at actually making people who have been rehabilitated take part in restorative actions in many cases the loss of freedom and the duration of the restorative action would be longer than we'd currently place someone in jail for.

The actions and the quality of the outcomes should be subject to continuous random control trials and the system continously improved by applying the results to the whole. Also with current progress in wearable technology it will be possible to control people's behaviour and lives remotely and by algorithm, bring on the adjustment bureau, it will be cheaper and much more effective than prison.

[glazbagun]

Not totally related, but I've just been reading the wiki on debtors prisons from the days before we had decent bankruptcy laws. In these days of payday loans and high interest credit cards I'm sure a third of our population would be locked up in those days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison#Gr...