Britain's Jail System

[Loyly]

We don't make enough use of prisons in this country. If only we had more space to house prisoners, we could lock more of the wrongdoers away rather than letting them walk the streets. I would also welcome some cost savings in the prisons, starting with taking away the home comforts enjoyed by those who are incarcerated.

[Pesty]

Willy Nilly said:

Smiler. said:

I find it difficult to muster sympathy for the lack of welfare for criminals when they are devoid of any towards the victims of their (often repeated) crime.

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

They have the same prospect of work as the rest of us, they just don't want it. What has no prospect of work outside got to do with stabbing people up inside prison?
Oh the knows life is hard I'll kill that fellow.

If prison was harder and sentences longer and solitary was used there would be less incentive to go in. You've just said yourself they have nothing to lose well make it that they have. 15 years solitary for stealing a car on first offence I bet car theft disappears over night and if it didn't as the scrotes were caught because it's only the same small proportion doing most of the crime as they were locked up the car crim would disappear then.
We've been trying prison redorm for a 100 years it's not working, let's try something new.

Vocal Minority said:

The majority of the thread is typical PH in my opinion. Not actual consideration and no thought outside of our privelidged bubble.

Because I don't think 80-90% of people on here know how fking ste life can be for some - of course there are a lot of wronguns in the world.

]

I think it tends to be the people I privileged bubbles who tend to be liberal prison reform types. They are not the ones who are effected by these gang members (like this case) they don't get effected by crime. These gang members don't gang rape as punishment children of the liberal elite living in Westminster ( I don't know London but I'm guessing that's a posh place)

Just like a recent vote that is mentioned a lot I see parallels. The people who voted out are the ones effected and wanted out. The liberal elite are still winging and can't understand why.

By the way I grew up in the stest council estate in my town, I'm not trying to start a my life was harder than yours, card board box type argument but I am suggesting that the decent honest types who actually have to live amongst these people yet don't go down the same route as them would in my opinion be the hang em and flog em types because they face the reality of soft sentences and easy life's in Gaol.

Edited by Pesty on Thursday 20th October 06:38

[V8 Fettler]

The value of the land that Pentonville sits on should be sufficient to fund the construction of a modern prison out of London.

Difficult to believe that it's not possible to design a solution to: ">The officers claim they are unable to prevent the influx of weapons and drugs being thrown over the prison walls <"

[spaximus]

Different prisons treat people differently. I had a staff member jailed for a driving offence. Scared stless going in after a few months bored out of his head.

Holds no fear for him now, but not going back. He told me a travel lodge is a worse accommodation.

As for over crowding, I am for the death penalty and that would make a lot of space.

The other thing is how do these secure places get a hunting knife inside? Why not make all visitors go through metal detectors and drug swipes etc, wear paper overalls etc? It cannot be that hard if there was a will?

[Dog Star]

Whilst I have very little care about the actual conditions the prisoners are kept in - especially the likes of this fella (convicted of hiding a fking machine gun, while already doing time for armed robbery - who gives a st if he has a young kid - or runs a kitten sanctuary for that matter) - I do think that they have a right to be safe from violence from other prisoners, drug peddling and so forth.

I've no issue with conditions being harsh, but I don't think anyone should have to live in fear of violence or abuse. That is where we fall down in our duty of care as a society. And that's coming from me - somewhere to the right of Hitler.

[pim]

V8 Fettler said:

The value of the land that Pentonville sits on should be sufficient to fund the construction of a modern prison out of London.

Difficult to believe that it's not possible to design a solution to: ">The officers claim they are unable to prevent the influx of weapons and drugs being thrown over the prison walls <"

My previous neighbours years ago where prison officers.A pair of A holes they should have both been in the cells.

[98elise]

FredClogs said:

Someone said you can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its prisoners, I don't know who, probably Ghandi or some other liberal dogooder type to the left of the likes of Gove and May, Hitler maybe...

Anyway this article shocked me.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-377086...

I don't expect much sympathy for the guy killed, his family and child maybe, but should we really be housing 1300 people in a jail even the Victorians thought would be full with 900?

They get more personal space than the crew of a warship, and they get a larger amount of money per head for food than the armed forces. There accommodation is also free, which is generally isn't for the armed forces.

Living in a prison is a choice.

[FredClogs]

98elise said:

Living in a prison is a choice.

Errr... Not really.

Here's another article written by a prison officer, since 2010 there's been nearly £900million of cut to the prison service budget.

https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network...

Is it a question of out of sight out of mind for the general public regarding what is seemingly a real problem?

We jail people for 3 reasons, to protect the public from them, to rehabilitate and educate offenders in the hope they won't re-offend and to punish offenders on behalf of society... If you really think about that last reason it sort of seems a bit odd, doesn't it? And should the level and threat of punishment really reflect the wider economic state of the country, I might punish my kids if they're naughty but the punishments are usually tailored to fit the crime, not my bank balance.

Edited by FredClogs on Thursday 20th October 09:19

[Digga]

pim said:

V8 Fettler said:

The value of the land that Pentonville sits on should be sufficient to fund the construction of a modern prison out of London.

Difficult to believe that it's not possible to design a solution to: ">The officers claim they are unable to prevent the influx of weapons and drugs being thrown over the prison walls <"

My previous neighbours years ago where prison officers.A pair of A holes they should have both been in the cells.

A relative of mine did a short, sharp (and thankfully successful in that he's well on the straight and narrow) spell in a youth offenders unit a year or two back. His mother found the whole security process very intimidating, but was happy to comply to help ensure the prison was kept clean of drugs and safe from weapons. except it wasn't, and her comments were "there's no way anything gets in there without the guards knowing". I think some may well be complicit.

[Smiler.]

Willy Nilly said:

Smiler. said:

I find it difficult to muster sympathy for the lack of welfare for criminals when they are devoid of any towards the victims of their (often repeated) crime.

The problem with this attitude is that it doesn't solve the problem.

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose. Now, if you have nothing to loose, why would you not commit crime and if you get caught, what is to stop you continuing committing crime when you are released?

The prison system would be much better off and more useful if it were to ignore the Daily Mail gnashing of teeth and rehabilitate offenders into useful members of society, instead of locking them up and releasing them with no prospect of employment when they are released which leaves them with no option but to commit more crime, usually to survive.

And in the nicest possible way, discussions like this would be better off without the usual air of moral superiority

As I said, it's a complex subject.


A major issue, as others have stated, is that many offenders have no intention of reforming themselves or are under the yoke of addiction (which serious hampers & undermines reform).

But I agree, rehabilitation should be key in how criminals are dealt with & welfare whilst incarcerated is an important part of that. In a world where resources are without limit, it's a much easier goal to achieve but we don't live in that world & it's a bit rich trying to convince people who need medical care that the budget has been cut so prisoners experiences can be made better. Add in politicians to the mix & we end up with the usual bickering. Anecdotal I know but I've just finished watching Narcos on the telly & it was clear that there was only one way to deal with some criminals. I don't particularly subscribe to that approach but again, tell that to those whose lives have been blighted as the victims of crime.

Personally, I think every person should be afforded the chance to reform & leave crime behind. But how many chances should one get? Is fraud more worthy of more chances than crimes with violence?


PS: In my earlier post I was mistaken in stating that the R4 programme I listened to was was The Moral Maze, although it's an equally engaging episode. But what I listened to was What Point Prison? The Debate, which also hears some quite startling comments from former prisoners.

Each programme lasts 45 mins & are both well worth a listen, but The Debate is the better of the two.

Willy Nilly said:

The reason most of us don't even break the ridiculously low speed limits, is that we have too much to loose.

I'd also like to pick you up on this, what do you mean?

[Fastchas]

I work in a prison.

Every prisoner HAS to attend education or work. But some are known to say 'I don't work on the outside, I'm not working in here for £10 a week!' All we can do is put them on Basic regime.
It's true that every prisoner is eligible to serve HALF their sentence (unless they are in for public protection) BUT their release date is subject to conditions. If they misbehave, their parole date or move to 'open' conditions can be moved back.
They have priviliges. They have TV's and the Enhanced are allowed game stations. You have to let them have something that can be taken away as punishment. It's a learning curve that bad behaviour has its consequences. They are categorised back to Standard or even Basic for a while then reassessed. If the period has been trouble free then they are re-cat'd back to a higher level.

Prisoners are in prison because of their inability to make the right choice. I don't mean the career crim, he know's what he's doing. I mean the one's who can't control their emotions, who lash out without thinking and who think casual violence is a way of life to getting things done. The don't make decisions or have a thought process like you and I might. They don't think of the repercussions.
I recently worked in the postroom, censuring their post in and out with one other member of staff. The prison was going through very serious problems with NPS (mamba) and I remember a raid on the 'Enhanced' houseblock resulting in 6(!) iPhones being found. Now, I can say, hand on heart that none of those phones came in through the post, me and the other person who hated the prisoners saw to that.
So, how did they come in? Bent officers? Now we have problems with drones being flown over the fences.
EVERY visitor is subject to searches and dogs (who are now trained to sniff out lithium batteries).
Whilst I worked in the postroom I discovered some heroin under a decorative flower on a card to 'Daddy' and some lined paper with a childs drawing on that was infused with mamba.
The prison is still rife with mamba. I said the only way to keep is out is a complete ban on letters and paper from outside. Every prisoner to be emailed from their family/friends and the prison prints it off. The Governor is reluctant to do that but it's going to take a radical approach to get it stamped out.

[Digga]

Fastchas said:

The prison is still rife with mamba. I said the only way to keep is out is a complete ban on letters and paper from outside. Every prisoner to be emailed from their family/friends and the prison prints it off. The Governor is reluctant to do that but it's going to take a radical approach to get it stamped out.

If that is the case, the only way to deal with it, short of a total ban, is to ensure any post going into the unit has to be 'vouched for' by a designated sender who will face severe charges if there is found to be any smuggling. Deal with the problem at its source.

[Dog Star]

My mates OH is a prison officer and the big one they have now is people walking dogs and using those things for throwing tennis balls - they can throw them hundreds of yards over the big fences - the balls are stuffed with drugs. Evidently the drug of choice at the moment is something called "spice".

[MitchT]

FredClogs said:

... but should we really be housing 1300 people in a jail even the Victorians thought would be full with 900?

Stick them on a train at rush hour. Then they'll now what overcrowding is.

[FredClogs]

Digga said:

Fastchas said:

The prison is still rife with mamba. I said the only way to keep is out is a complete ban on letters and paper from outside. Every prisoner to be emailed from their family/friends and the prison prints it off. The Governor is reluctant to do that but it's going to take a radical approach to get it stamped out.

If that is the case, the only way to deal with it, short of a total ban, is to ensure any post going into the unit has to be 'vouched for' by a designated sender who will face severe charges if there is found to be any smuggling. Deal with the problem at its source.

So you deal with the problem of a chronically underfunded jail system, facing more cuts, still using Victorian infrastructure by creating more criminals and jails birds to stick in it... The system seems to be on a death spiral as it is.

[Oakey]

Digga said:

Fastchas said:

The prison is still rife with mamba. I said the only way to keep is out is a complete ban on letters and paper from outside. Every prisoner to be emailed from their family/friends and the prison prints it off. The Governor is reluctant to do that but it's going to take a radical approach to get it stamped out.

If that is the case, the only way to deal with it, short of a total ban, is to ensure any post going into the unit has to be 'vouched for' by a designated sender who will face severe charges if there is found to be any smuggling. Deal with the problem at its source.

Am I over thinking things? Just photocopy their mail and give them the copy?

[Fastchas]

Dog Star said:

My mates OH is a prison officer and the big one they have now is people walking dogs and using those things for throwing tennis balls - they can throw them hundreds of yards over the big fences - the balls are stuffed with drugs. Evidently the drug of choice at the moment is something called "spice".

Spice is another term for Mamba, or psychoactive substance. They were banned earlier this year by the government.
I thought mamba was a weed like substance but it is in fact a chemical. You could put a few drops on grass cuttings and smoke that.
The smugglers soak it into writing paper then send it in to the prisoner. The prisoner then rips of small quantities approx. 5cm x 1cm and sells it for £10 a pop. The buyer puts it in his roll-up.
4/5 sheets of paper is a good earner!

[Digga]

Oakey said:

Digga said:

Fastchas said:

The prison is still rife with mamba. I said the only way to keep is out is a complete ban on letters and paper from outside. Every prisoner to be emailed from their family/friends and the prison prints it off. The Governor is reluctant to do that but it's going to take a radical approach to get it stamped out.

If that is the case, the only way to deal with it, short of a total ban, is to ensure any post going into the unit has to be 'vouched for' by a designated sender who will face severe charges if there is found to be any smuggling. Deal with the problem at its source.

Am I over thinking things? Just photocopy their mail and give them the copy?

Or, how about, like electronic mail?

FredClogs said:

So you deal with the problem of a chronically underfunded jail system, facing more cuts, still using Victorian infrastructure by creating more criminals and jails birds to stick in it... The system seems to be on a death spiral as it is.

Hey, I'm just working on the sales side here. Someone in production needs to step up their game, that's another matter.

I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?

[98elise]

FredClogs said:

98elise said:

Living in a prison is a choice.

Errr... Not really.

Edited by FredClogs on Thursday 20th October 09:19

Yes it is, don't commit crimes and you won't have to live there.

[Digga]

98elise said:

FredClogs said:

98elise said:

Living in a prison is a choice.

Errr... Not really.

Edited by FredClogs on Thursday 20th October 09:19

Yes it is, don't commit crimes and you won't have to live there.

Quite. UK prison population is less than 1.5%. Even if you assume only half the criminals are caught and convicted, that's still a tiny fraction of the overall population. It cannot be that hard to stay out of jail.