Britain's Jail System
Discussion
Digga said:
ey, I'm just working on the sales side here. Someone in production needs to step up their game, that's another matter.
I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
I have an aversion to it if it fails to prevent crime, either inside or outside the jail.I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
FredClogs said:
Digga said:
ey, I'm just working on the sales side here. Someone in production needs to step up their game, that's another matter.
I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
I have an aversion to it if it fails to prevent crime, either inside or outside the jail.I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
Digga said:
FredClogs said:
Digga said:
ey, I'm just working on the sales side here. Someone in production needs to step up their game, that's another matter.
I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
I have an aversion to it if it fails to prevent crime, either inside or outside the jail.I have no aversion to locking up more of our criminal underclass. Do you?
Petty repeat offending linked to lifestyle choices and sub optimal parenting could be avoided by just paying people not to commit crime, it costs £40k a year (a 2 second google reveals) to keep someone in a UK jail. How's about paying them £39k a year to not commit crime - would that work and suit a logical and rational approach. Freeing up the resources to deal with the mentally ill, educationally challenged and broken minds you find in jails.
Prison only scares normal people by the looks of things on here.
Most criminals or people from a "Disadvantaged" life take it on the chin as doing their bit.
Bring back hanging for those too damaged to be phased by the prison system and leave prisons how they are to scare us normal people if we ever err too long on the wrong side of the law.
Most criminals or people from a "Disadvantaged" life take it on the chin as doing their bit.
Bring back hanging for those too damaged to be phased by the prison system and leave prisons how they are to scare us normal people if we ever err too long on the wrong side of the law.
boxxob said:
The cost idea is a myth. The rate at which people commit what you call 'petty crime' has a much larger cost to society and the public. The burglaries, thefts/robberies, vandalism and general anti-social behaviour, that may be deemed petty, not only cost society far larger sums of money in direct losses, but you have the costs of the police and justice system and then the erosion of the feelings of security and well-being of the communities of victims. Anybody sent to prison for those crimes (unusual as it is) is likely to have committed hundreds of such offences beyond those they are convicted for. Sending someone to prison for driving at 100mph (yes, I know it will be classed as dd rather than speeding) where no harm actually resulted, is, in many cases, a waste of money.
You don't need to pay people to not commit crime, you simply need to pay this tiny section of community, from which the majority these people originate, to not have children in the first place.
You could, or you could educate them and give their lives hope and meaning so they don't embark on these self destructive negative cycles of behaviour, saving both money and moral quandary... Or you could just castrate them, you're right.You don't need to pay people to not commit crime, you simply need to pay this tiny section of community, from which the majority these people originate, to not have children in the first place.
PH never disappoints.
Vocal Minority said:
FredClogs said:
Someone said you can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its prisoners, I don't know who, probably Ghandi or some other liberal dogooder type to the left of the likes of Gove and May, Hitler maybe...
I presume your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek here..... (For those of you who don't know, it was PH hero Winston Churchill)Fastchas said:
I work in a prison.
Every prisoner HAS to attend education or work. But some are known to say 'I don't work on the outside, I'm not working in here for £10 a week!' All we can do is put them on Basic regime.
It's true that every prisoner is eligible to serve HALF their sentence (unless they are in for public protection) BUT their release date is subject to conditions. If they misbehave, their parole date or move to 'open' conditions can be moved back.
They have priviliges. They have TV's and the Enhanced are allowed game stations. You have to let them have something that can be taken away as punishment. It's a learning curve that bad behaviour has its consequences. They are categorised back to Standard or even Basic for a while then reassessed. If the period has been trouble free then they are re-cat'd back to a higher level.
Fastchas, if you have the time and are allowed to, could you describe what the differences in daily life in prison are for Basic, Standard & Enhanced prisoners?Every prisoner HAS to attend education or work. But some are known to say 'I don't work on the outside, I'm not working in here for £10 a week!' All we can do is put them on Basic regime.
It's true that every prisoner is eligible to serve HALF their sentence (unless they are in for public protection) BUT their release date is subject to conditions. If they misbehave, their parole date or move to 'open' conditions can be moved back.
They have priviliges. They have TV's and the Enhanced are allowed game stations. You have to let them have something that can be taken away as punishment. It's a learning curve that bad behaviour has its consequences. They are categorised back to Standard or even Basic for a while then reassessed. If the period has been trouble free then they are re-cat'd back to a higher level.
People are always banging on about how cushy prison is, personally the thought of losing my liberty and being locked up for years really frightens me.
Basic get no telly, fewer visits and gym sessions (1 a week I think), reduced spends on the canteen.
Enhanced get more visits, gym time and spends, can find it easier to move off the wing and officers generally seem to trust them more.
I wonder what the expected major reforms will be - it's fairly obvious the current system isn't very effective.
Most of the problems stem from a lack of money - and therefore limited activities and staff.
Enhanced get more visits, gym time and spends, can find it easier to move off the wing and officers generally seem to trust them more.
I wonder what the expected major reforms will be - it's fairly obvious the current system isn't very effective.
Most of the problems stem from a lack of money - and therefore limited activities and staff.
Fred - Dostoyevsky. You were probably correct in his leanings.
This event surprised me a fair bit. Not least of which that a hunting knife was used. Not some in house manufactured thing, but a hunting knife. That was some cake to get that in
I'm more concerned that contraband like that gets in than of anything else on the story really. And that those who work in them must also be at heavy risk. That there are wrong uns in there should be no surprise.
This event surprised me a fair bit. Not least of which that a hunting knife was used. Not some in house manufactured thing, but a hunting knife. That was some cake to get that in
I'm more concerned that contraband like that gets in than of anything else on the story really. And that those who work in them must also be at heavy risk. That there are wrong uns in there should be no surprise.
sidicks said:
Derek Smith said:
There's a lot on the Prison Reform Trust's website.
They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.
I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.
In your opinion, is that because there aren't sufficient opportunities for prisoners to improve themselves while inside, or that many choose not to utilise what is available. Or something else?They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.
I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.
Let's run with protect the public, punish the offender and cut recidivism.
At the moment there is punishment. Merely having one's freedom removed is sufficient.
But the public are not protected in the sense that habitual offenders are not kept away from the public soon enough or long enough. One particular offender subjected an 18-year-old woman to a whole series of sexual offences. He threatened to kill her, holding a knife against her throat, leaving a mark that was still visible 36 hrs later.
He spent less than three and a half years in prison and will reoffend, everyone knows that. There was no treatment, no assessment of what might stop him offending. So we have what many might consider a light sentence for terrorising a woman at the start of her adult life.
But we have others in prison where alternative punishment is cheaper, more sensible, and easier to impose. Get rid of those who should not be in prison and keep the spaces for people such as the violent rapist.
Recidivism - there is much research out there for way of diverting. Yet little is done. This is nonsensical.
V8 Fettler said:
The value of the land that Pentonville sits on should be sufficient to fund the construction of a modern prison out of London.
Difficult to believe that it's not possible to design a solution to: ">The officers claim they are unable to prevent the influx of weapons and drugs being thrown over the prison walls <"
I think the solution is "paying the prison staff a reasonable living wage and recruiting better staff in the first place" Do the former and you MIGHT be able to do the latter.Difficult to believe that it's not possible to design a solution to: ">The officers claim they are unable to prevent the influx of weapons and drugs being thrown over the prison walls <"
Porkbrain said:
Fastchas said:
I work in a prison.
Every prisoner HAS to attend education or work. But some are known to say 'I don't work on the outside, I'm not working in here for £10 a week!' All we can do is put them on Basic regime.
It's true that every prisoner is eligible to serve HALF their sentence (unless they are in for public protection) BUT their release date is subject to conditions. If they misbehave, their parole date or move to 'open' conditions can be moved back.
They have priviliges. They have TV's and the Enhanced are allowed game stations. You have to let them have something that can be taken away as punishment. It's a learning curve that bad behaviour has its consequences. They are categorised back to Standard or even Basic for a while then reassessed. If the period has been trouble free then they are re-cat'd back to a higher level.
Fastchas, if you have the time and are allowed to, could you describe what the differences in daily life in prison are for Basic, Standard & Enhanced prisoners?Every prisoner HAS to attend education or work. But some are known to say 'I don't work on the outside, I'm not working in here for £10 a week!' All we can do is put them on Basic regime.
It's true that every prisoner is eligible to serve HALF their sentence (unless they are in for public protection) BUT their release date is subject to conditions. If they misbehave, their parole date or move to 'open' conditions can be moved back.
They have priviliges. They have TV's and the Enhanced are allowed game stations. You have to let them have something that can be taken away as punishment. It's a learning curve that bad behaviour has its consequences. They are categorised back to Standard or even Basic for a while then reassessed. If the period has been trouble free then they are re-cat'd back to a higher level.
People are always banging on about how cushy prison is, personally the thought of losing my liberty and being locked up for years really frightens me.
The conditions on basic/standard are pretty crap TBH. The toilets/showers are not places where you'd want to clean yourself.
Enhanced prisoners enjoy a far better lifestyle and their wing is really nice, like a hostel. They have single cell occupancy and a shower in their own cell. They also are allowed to work as Listeners or some other role that pays better.
Some of the prisoners are no better than dirt on your shoe. The Enhanced fellas are quite nice to chat to and you can trust them to an extent. Most of them are not criminals but find one mistake cost them their liberty. One guy I get along with is coming to the end of his term, locked up for causing Death by Dangerous Driving. Pleaded guilty from the off and accepted what he'd done. Yeah he should be locked up but he's a young adult of 22 who's not caused a fuss since being in. He shouldn't have to mingle with the crack-heads and robbers, but he was rewarded for good behaviour and lives on the Enhanced block. He won't be back.
boxxob said:
recidivism can be a misleading metric.
But then, can't they all?There seems little doubt that penalties that include imprisonment generally encourage reoffending. It seems that the fault lies not with the penalty as such, as other countries show, but the way they are treated inside.
My feeling is that we need longer sentences for those who will not respond to any form of regime inside. However, there are those who are made worse by being banged up.
There are various pressure groups with regards the way we punish people and they often publish in-depth research. The tragedy, and tragedy is no hype, that the government refuses to take it on board and we get the nonsense such as 'short sharp shock' and 'hard on criminals'. Nice words, but they always make things worse.
My youngest works with kids who, because they are excluded from school, are at considerable risk of becoming criminals and ending up in prison. It saves us taxpayers money yet it is run by a charity. Some of the reasons kids are excluded from school beggar belief. It puts them at risk, yet the state seems unconcerned.
Derek Smith said:
sidicks said:
Derek Smith said:
There's a lot on the Prison Reform Trust's website.
They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.
I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.
In your opinion, is that because there aren't sufficient opportunities for prisoners to improve themselves while inside, or that many choose not to utilise what is available. Or something else?They want prisons which are just, humane and effective.
I don't know about just, but humane? No. But even the most jerking knee response must agree that they are ineffective.
Let's run with protect the public, punish the offender and cut recidivism.
At the moment there is punishment. Merely having one's freedom removed is sufficient.
But the public are not protected in the sense that habitual offenders are not kept away from the public soon enough or long enough. One particular offender subjected an 18-year-old woman to a whole series of sexual offences. He threatened to kill her, holding a knife against her throat, leaving a mark that was still visible 36 hrs later.
He spent less than three and a half years in prison and will reoffend, everyone knows that. There was no treatment, no assessment of what might stop him offending. So we have what many might consider a light sentence for terrorising a woman at the start of her adult life.
But we have others in prison where alternative punishment is cheaper, more sensible, and easier to impose. Get rid of those who should not be in prison and keep the spaces for people such as the violent rapist.
Recidivism - there is much research out there for way of diverting. Yet little is done. This is nonsensical.
Therefore as a self interested person everyone should primarily care about rehabilitation not punishment.
What would my ideal system be:
1: Protection, first phase is to remove people so long as they present a threat to society. This should be more like being sectioned, it's not punishment and it lasts as long as is required.
2: Rehabilitation, with modern technology this would in most cases be conducted outside jail. I envisage a monitoring system where not only is your location controlled but, who you talk to, whether you get into an argument, whether you take substances. As with the previous phase you don't leave it until your behaviour is adjusted. In many of the one off type offences the perp would enter the system at the end of this phase.
3: Punishment: The stage would always be outside of prison. The offender would still be stripped of much of their freedom by monitoring technology. Part of this phase would be restorative justice, e.g. house breakers would be cleaning up after robberies and seeing the human effects of their previous crimes.
Dunno if it would work but it would be a hell of an experiment.
One of the fascinating features of such a system would be that:
1: It wouldn't actually be that harmful in the case of miscarriages of justice. (Imagine Ched Evan's progress through such a system).
2: Complete sociopaths would get the treatment they need irrespective of the actual crime they got caught doing.
Two prison related stories on the news tonight...
2 serious crims escape from Pentonvile by cutting through the bars and Bedford prison looks and sounds more like a freshers dorm, prison officers union boss on the telly just now saying the system is fubar'd. Underfunded and over used.
2 serious crims escape from Pentonvile by cutting through the bars and Bedford prison looks and sounds more like a freshers dorm, prison officers union boss on the telly just now saying the system is fubar'd. Underfunded and over used.
The use of drones to get stuff into prisons seems to be a major problem, seems like a netting system around the cell blocks could be needed but cost would be massive. Some sort of decision on whether we try and teach prisoners trades etc again so that they are rehabilitated a bit or just locked up for their sentence needs to be made. At the moment we just seem to have a cash starved system where prisoners have easy access to drugs and it is a joke for the serious criminal.
greygoose said:
The use of drones to get stuff into prisons seems to be a major problem, seems like a netting system around the cell blocks could be needed but cost would be massive. Some sort of decision on whether we try and teach prisoners trades etc again so that they are rehabilitated a bit or just locked up for their sentence needs to be made. At the moment we just seem to have a cash starved system where prisoners have easy access to drugs and it is a joke for the serious criminal.
First thing is do not believe what you are told by the press its mostly garbage.A key aspect of all prison regimes is rehabilitation. Every single prison has various programs related to reducing re offending.
Every prison has and education department, a library and so on and inmates can and are encouraged to get qualifications whether its simply learning to read and write to getting an nvq in graphic design, building, plumbing, cleaning etc.
There is a huge structure in the prisons to try rehab the inmates.
The core issue is the same one faced by the NHS, MOD and others. Funding and lack of management.
The amount of financial waste in the prison service is mindblowing and the first thing the government does is cut budgets and reduce staffing and facilities which in turn leads to the problems reported recently in the press. Of course the problems recently reported are the tip of a very very big iceberg that the public do not get to hear about from day to day.
As to stopping drones and drugs they try and a lot of prisons have netting to try stop drugs being flung over the walls or flown over however drones are a much bigger issue than someone simply lobbing a tennis ball full of drugs over.
Unfortunately the prisons are beyond chronically under staffed.
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