Russian, English Channel, EU posturing
Discussion
eyebeebe said:
Knowing very little about sea law...
Can the Russians just pass through our territorial waters like this?
If they were flying planes into our airspace without permission we'd be (threatening to) shoot them down.
UNCLOS provides freedom of navigation so unless they're grossly breaking MARPOL either with the clag out of the lum or leaking oil(in which case the MCA will write them a stiffly worded email) they can go where they like, including through the traffic separation scheme in the Dover Strait as long as they comply with the mandatory reporting.Can the Russians just pass through our territorial waters like this?
If they were flying planes into our airspace without permission we'd be (threatening to) shoot them down.
I usually work on the basis of not making a huge fuss about something I can't prevent. The Rusdian fleet is doing nothing wrong, we don't have exclusive control over the English Channel, so surely the best policy is to let them get on with it and pretend we don't care? Sending a tiny warship to shadow them just makes us look foolish imo, like one of those tiny, yappy dogs barking at a Great Dane.
RYH64E said:
I usually work on the basis of not making a huge fuss about something I can't prevent. The Rusdian fleet is doing nothing wrong, we don't have exclusive control over the English Channel, so surely the best policy is to let them get on with it and pretend we don't care? Sending a tiny warship to shadow them just makes us look foolish imo, like one of those tiny, yappy dogs barking at a Great Dane.
Well they are going to bomb the s
t out of Syria Aleppo so depends on your position really. Saw an interview with I assume a Russian military analyst on Russia Today, that it's good for western navies to highlight a Russian menace in the form of a Russian navy, when the big enemy of the 21st century "appears" to be insurgency/terrorism/asymmetric in the Middle East, along the lines of why do you need warships when your enemy drives Toyota pickups, many hundreds of miles from the sea.
"Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russians were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
ETA: and the US are always asserting the right of navigation up to 4 or 5miles from unfriendly countries coasts, which could easily be seen/interpreted as much more provocative. It cuts both ways. This channel episode has silly posturing on both sides.
"Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russians were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
ETA: and the US are always asserting the right of navigation up to 4 or 5miles from unfriendly countries coasts, which could easily be seen/interpreted as much more provocative. It cuts both ways. This channel episode has silly posturing on both sides.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Sunday 23 October 09:56
Edited by Northern Munkee on Sunday 23 October 09:58
kowalski655 said:
Isnt there a NATO exercise going on in the N Atlantic at the moment? A whole bunch of foreign ships sailed from Faslane about a week ago. Probably best not to sail through that with a REAL Russian fleet, 1 mistake on the radar & Whoops,Apocalypse 
They just finished a big exercise with robot ships and subs off the NW coast, so probably that.Northern Munkee said:
Saw an interview with I assume a Russian military analyst on Russia Today, that it's good for western navies to highlight a Russian menace in the form of a Russian navy, when the big enemy of the 21st century "appears" to be insurgency/terrorism/asymmetric in the Middle East, along the lines of why do you need warships when your enemy drives Toyota pickups, many hundreds of miles from the sea.
"Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russian were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
Not sure we've actually got any at the moment..."Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russian were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
CrutyRammers said:
Northern Munkee said:
Saw an interview with I assume a Russian military analyst on Russia Today, that it's good for western navies to highlight a Russian menace in the form of a Russian navy, when the big enemy of the 21st century "appears" to be insurgency/terrorism/asymmetric in the Middle East, along the lines of why do you need warships when your enemy drives Toyota pickups, many hundreds of miles from the sea.
"Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russian were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
Not sure we've actually got any at the moment..."Appearances" it seems to be the reason we sent small warships to "escort" this fleet down the North Sea and channel when it could have been tracked by radar and maritime patrol aircraft, or does Michael Fallon think the Russian were going to sail into the Thames estuary or into Portsmouth, to attack us?
Welshbeef said:
RYH64E said:
I usually work on the basis of not making a huge fuss about something I can't prevent. The Russian fleet is doing nothing wrong, we don't have exclusive control over the English Channel, so surely the best policy is to let them get on with it and pretend we don't care? Sending a tiny warship to shadow them just makes us look foolish imo, like one of those tiny, yappy dogs barking at a Great Dane.
Well they are going to bomb the st out of Syria Aleppo so depends on your position really. Making a fuss about them sailing in international waters isn't going to stop them doing whatever they plan to do in Syria.
When the son of one of my colleagues family was put to sea on the Daring or the Duncan, what surprised me is they then showed me their smart phone and showing the position of the ship on an app effectively "where's my warship?" On an App, thought that odd, presumably the app would be blocked in time of war, but we're not at war with Russia, if you follow your son/daughter on our warship by smartphone app do we need to send a warship to follow a Russian carrier group?
It smacks of PR exercise, tabloid fodder all round both here and in Russia.
It smacks of PR exercise, tabloid fodder all round both here and in Russia.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Tuesday 25th October 22:48
Welshbeef said:
Northern Munkee said:
That crossed my mind, but would sort of reinforce the RT analyst's point.
But we will have 2 completed very soon he largest in the world and a new fleet of Type 25 stealth destroyers plus the replacement vanguard trident subsPlus the new global combat ship, as good as it will be, is still a reduction in numbers just like the Type 45 was, it doesn't matter how good a ship is, it can only be in one place at any given time and carriers generally need protection - will we even have a large enough surface fleet to protect two carriers and carry out duties elsewhere? I doubt it. This country has let its armed forces dwindle significantly IMO.
No biggy though, we can always drop a nuclear weapon on anybody that annoys us
The telegraph have an article today we are now in a Cold War with Russia.
A General from Russia describes the Cold War somewhere between the Berlin Wall and the Cuban Missile crisis. They are also not interested in any discussions with Obama and will only speak with the next president.
The Russians are still unhappy with the end of the Cold War and want to realign the settlement. A Grand plan is forthcoming to re establish Russia as the true super power it is and it will not be told what to do or otherwise.
Globalism is over in many ways protectionism energy control terrorism - its a frightening world we face
A General from Russia describes the Cold War somewhere between the Berlin Wall and the Cuban Missile crisis. They are also not interested in any discussions with Obama and will only speak with the next president.
The Russians are still unhappy with the end of the Cold War and want to realign the settlement. A Grand plan is forthcoming to re establish Russia as the true super power it is and it will not be told what to do or otherwise.
Globalism is over in many ways protectionism energy control terrorism - its a frightening world we face
Welshbeef said:
But we will have 2 completed very soon he largest in the world and a new fleet of Type 25 stealth destroyers plus the replacement vanguard trident subs
No wonder the new QE class carriers are costing so much - they weren't supposed to anywhere near the size of the US carriers! 
They will, however, be the largest carriers the UK has ever had. The T45 destroyers are well equipped to defend the carriers with Sea Viper one of the most, if not the most, advanced naval air defence systems in the world. No Type 25 destroyers - they are in fact Type 26! They will be equipped with the RN's most modern air defence system - Sea Captor. Sea Ceptor is currently replacing the Vertical Launch Seawolf air defence system on the current Type 23 Frigates.
A few little issuettes though:
- The RN currently cannot man all its surface combatants at the moment. This will be exacerbated when the carriers come into service.
- The Type 45s have a few well publicised propulsion system problems which need to be ironed out.
- The carriers are supposed to be equipped with Lightning II (F-35B) aircraft but the UK won't have a full contingent for one carrier when they come into service let alone both carriers.
Apart from that, all is well!
Putin probably doesn't realise it but he's done the RN a real favour rattling the Russian sabres this way!
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