"Anti-Stepford" students - the fightback begins
Discussion
Thinking a bit more about this, I'm inclined to say that if you actually need to ask, maybe you shouldn't be carrying on, even if it's a 'yes'.
If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
Ari said:
I guess you're right.
I know you're right about me not being a rapist, but in light of this new concept that sex is only consensual once you've virtually got it in writing and notarised, arguably I am since I relied on common sense and empathy with the person I was with.
What a quaint and foolish notion that looks now.
My guess is that for most young people it's all basically the same as it was for us. But that is a guess.I know you're right about me not being a rapist, but in light of this new concept that sex is only consensual once you've virtually got it in writing and notarised, arguably I am since I relied on common sense and empathy with the person I was with.
What a quaint and foolish notion that looks now.
The whole thing about 'consent' seems to be irrelevant when thirty years later that consent can be withdrawn and the complainant encouraged to press charges without the need for corroborative evidence. Although I've led a full and enjoyable life I'm glad I'm past all that. It's like being unshackled from a raving lunatic.
Edited by Thorodin on Saturday 29th October 20:25
Ari said:
Thinking a bit more about this, I'm inclined to say that if you actually need to ask, maybe you shouldn't be carrying on, even if it's a 'yes'.
If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
Box ticking will be the end of us. If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
Otispunkmeyer said:
Ari said:
Thinking a bit more about this, I'm inclined to say that if you actually need to ask, maybe you shouldn't be carrying on, even if it's a 'yes'.
If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
Box ticking will be the end of us. If the signs are so mixed and she (he?) is so reticent that you are not sure and the question needs vocalising, maybe it's time to ease off.
All of which makes a bit of a mockery of the whole concept - what if she seems reluctant, the eager beau asks the question, she says yes because she feels pressurised (maybe not by him, maybe just by peer pressure - hey, she's a student, isn't this what she's supposed to be doing?).
He's now got the box ticked and the green light, as per official guidelines, even if actually, someone being a little more aware and sympathetic rather than just 'ticking the box' as they've been told to, might cotton on to the fact that she's not really that into it.
Which makes the whole thing entirely counter productive.
well said Ari
esxste said:
You say its a complex issue. I completely agree.
Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
This is PH and we all know everything about everything, but I'd caveat that by saying jet engines are significantly less complex than the female of the species.Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
esxste said:
You say its a complex issue. I completely agree.
Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
I don't disagree with you, but I'd suggest that the feelings and emotions surrounding sex cannot (and arguably should not) be reduced to what is essentially a box ticking (hey, I got her consent like I was told to) exercise. Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
esxste said:
You say its a complex issue. I completely agree.
Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
The focus on consent is wrong- the whole point is that Universities are becoming areas of restricted speach- vey 1984. Surely the solution to complexity is education?
Jet engines are complex machinery. We teach people the knowledge they need to understand them.
Consent is a complex issue. Why wouldn't we want to teach young people how to understand it?
Consent is a minor point- but as others have said, the problem isn't consent, its usually alcohol.
Ari said:
I don't disagree with you, but I'd suggest that the feelings and emotions surrounding sex cannot (and arguably should not) be reduced to what is essentially a box ticking (hey, I got her consent like I was told to) exercise.
I fail to see how you jump from one simple question to a box ticking exercise. I'd suggest to you it only feels like an awkward, alien concept. But its a simple thing - and I don't think the onus should be specifically on one party to seek or give. It could be as explicit as one party saying "f
k me" and the other going "yeahhhhhhh". Or do you think it'll be more like "Do you, Mary Gertrude Smith, consent to penetrative intercourse?"... "great, please sign here"
PugwasHDJ80 said:
The focus on consent is wrong- the whole point is that Universities are becoming areas of restricted speach- vey 1984.
Consent is a minor point- but as others have said, the problem isn't consent, its usually alcohol.
Oh, I agree that from what I've read, Uni's are becoming quite restricted in free speech. But consent is actually an important issue that shouldn't get sidelined by that. And the added factor of alcohol is why a bit of education about consent is a good thing - for both sexes. Consent is a minor point- but as others have said, the problem isn't consent, its usually alcohol.
Increasingly, younger adults seem to be unable to function socially at a reasonable level (once exposed to the wider world where they actually have to interact with people in real life) so who knows, maybe explicit lessons on how to relate to other people might actually be necessary?
It's a pretty sad statement about society in any case. It used to be that by the time you hit 18, your experience to that point gave you a reasonable ability to understand the basics of relating to other adults and your social skills could become rounded through experience- but now there is a generation of people who just seem to be completely inept out of the blocks and are completely unequipped to deal with taking responsibility for themselves.
It's a pretty sad statement about society in any case. It used to be that by the time you hit 18, your experience to that point gave you a reasonable ability to understand the basics of relating to other adults and your social skills could become rounded through experience- but now there is a generation of people who just seem to be completely inept out of the blocks and are completely unequipped to deal with taking responsibility for themselves.
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