Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
Mrr T said:
bmw535i said:
Mrr T said:
bmw535i said:
Mrr T said:
Just follow the points. The pledge came about because:
a) The government wanted to look good. They must have known they could not meet it.
b) The concern about immigration came about because of a surge in immigration following the E8 accession. The UK government could have vetoed the accession or imposed restrictions on access to the labour market. They choose not to.
So if there is concern about immigration and the government cannot keep its pledge it’s the UK government not the EU you should hold to account.
Ok, I'll ask the question again because you haven't answered it.a) The government wanted to look good. They must have known they could not meet it.
b) The concern about immigration came about because of a surge in immigration following the E8 accession. The UK government could have vetoed the accession or imposed restrictions on access to the labour market. They choose not to.
So if there is concern about immigration and the government cannot keep its pledge it’s the UK government not the EU you should hold to account.
Why couldn't they keep the pledge they made? I don't want to know why they made it.
"The concern about immigration came about because of a surge in immigration following the E8 accession. The UK government could have vetoed the accession or imposed restrictions on access to the labour market. They choose not to."
do you not understand?
Why couldn't they keep the pledge they made? I don't want to know why they made it.
Mrr T said:
Deptford Draylons said:
blindswelledrat said:
I think most people would, it's just that this simplistic vision of having magic glasses that enable us to hand-pick the good ones is unrealistic.
I think once the new concessions about sending people back if they don't find work in 6 months and no benefits for x number of years were proposed, this could have potentially solved it as close as realistically possible
Sending people back if they don't find work, huh ? You really believe that would happen ? I think once the new concessions about sending people back if they don't find work in 6 months and no benefits for x number of years were proposed, this could have potentially solved it as close as realistically possible
Odd too that people don't seem to mind proposing this rounding up and forced deportation of people though, the same people got upset about vans offering a return home service to illegal immigrants.
bmw535i said:
Why are you asking me the same question I've asked you? It's all a bit confusing.
Just a very simple answer would suffice instead of all the smoke and mirrors. It makes it very difficult to have a normal conversation.
Just a very simple answer would suffice instead of all the smoke and mirrors. It makes it very difficult to have a normal conversation.
What smoke and mirrors?
Silversixer in his post above even agrees with me.
So one last time.
The government could not fulfil its pledge because it allowed the E8 to join and most importantly did implement any controls on access to the labour market.
AW111 said:
The cry of "you are calling me a racist" is a get-out-of-jail card for some posters on this thread.
They see allegations of racism in the mildest question.
Chicken/egg... They see allegations of racism in the mildest question.
Were those who voted Leave daubed racist first or did they simply protest about being daubed for nothing...?
You can't deny it's happened... //ajd being a prime culprit.
Regardless, it's increasingly like a feckin playground on this thread, only with a lower quality of debate. We should take bets on how long it keeps going for. If the jock one is anything to go by we'll have exited before it ends!
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child said:
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child said:
bmw535i said:
B'stard Child said:
bmw535i said:
Our non EU immigration policies have been changed as a result of EU immigration and EU influence.
I raised that specific issue (with a good example of how wrong it was) as one of my 273 reason to vote leave pre "independance day" - it wasn't discussed and many of the same people here still won't discuss it properly...Trying to explain to people that if they put words such as 'childcare' or 'help' on their visa applications as reasons for coming to visit, they will be refused, is quite difficult. Also trying to get people from developing countries to provide financial evidence that they will return there is difficult.
There are mutliple spurious reasons the HO give for refusing entry to non EU migrants because they are under pressure to reduce immigration figures as the complete lack of control over EU migrants continues.
My friend tried 3 times to get his wife into the UK - nearly a grand in fees - each time turned down.
In the end he went the resident of EU country first route and a year later they couldn't do a damn thing but what a waste from a whole number of perspectives
And I thought it wasn't about immigration? Lots of heat being generated by Leave voters around a subject which was apparently nothing to do with the referendum result.
Round and round we go.
t at me?I'll have a stab at it but I'll duck out if you can't accept that there is another viewpoint.
Rightly or wrongly the Government recognised that Immigration was a hot topic and made a declaration that it would reduce net migration to 10's of thousands
Now we are in the EU - four freedoms and all that - no chance of restricting movement from EU
So the only migration that they could reduce was non EU - clearly they had some traction in this area but not as much as they hoped because they missed their target by a country mile.
My motivation for voting leave wasn't a reaction to free movement - it was a lack of control v an unrealistic attempt at control to balance the books in one area. Fundamentally it was doomed to failure.
I'd like control on both EU and non EU and a fair policy on acceptance from both routes of migration
You could argue that the Government shouldn't have made the commitment that it couldn't keep - but it just demonstrated to many people that the system was more broken than they thought.
t at anyone, but I'm sorry if you were offended.SilverSixer said:
Mrr T is right about immigration controls - our government's decision not to use those it could have used is what caused the increases in immigration and the perceived problems that brought, which were then blamed on the EU and never balanced against the benefits they bought.
This country was built on immigration - it's been good in many ways for the country across thousands of years.I work with people from all over Europe on a daily basis and I don't have issues with any of them.
The current level of uncontrolled immigration has not been good for the "whole of the UK"
Other aspects of migration within the UK has not be good for the "whole of the UK"
The "London Bubble" has not been good for the "whole of the UK"
SilverSixer said:
Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain. He's right.
No he made a decision to vote remain - it doesn't make him right - that he agrees with you doesn't make him right - I came to a different conclusion that also doesn't make me right either - I didn't believe without a "leave" vote that the immigration situation will be resolved by the Government or the EU - I don't regard the "Freedom of movement" as being a good Freedom.As I said I had 273 reasons for voting to leave (OK 272) but none of them were racist or xenophobic
SilverSixer said:
It was all UK government policies and UK government decisions which lead to his situation, failure to control EU immigration was a UK government failing, not an automatic consequence of EU membership. Now the baby is getting thrown out with the perfectly clean, warm, organic skin kind bubble-bath infused bath water, because the situation was represented to the public so incorrectly and so consistently that it became "the truth about immigration".
I look at it as leaving a "protectionist" environment that is moving every closer to a complete union with a UK tagging along hoping to keep the benefits without being sucked into the morass or the chaos when it all comes crashing down (which without full union it will).We have a head start on getting out - it would be nice if during the divorce proceedings we could have amicable discussions on how best to proceed so that the EU can move forward without a reluctant partner slowing the process down and we can remain partners in Europe without being in the EU.
Mrr T said:
What smoke and mirrors?
Silversixer in his post above even agrees with me.
So one last time.
The government could not fulfil its pledge because it allowed the E8 to join and most importantly did implement any controls on access to the labour market.
So we have no control over immigration from the EU. If we're not in the EU we will be able to control it and subsequently change the non EU immigration rules. The lack of EU control has clearly resulted in what could be considered draconian and unfair immigration controls being implemented on non EU migrants.
You are probably unaware of the hoops that non-EU migrants have to jump through to get into this country. I have given some examples of a couple of the cases I have worked on. I am fortunate that I have access to qualified and certified advisors on immigration who in turn have direct access to the HO to expidite cases where required.
ETA: When you say 'did', do you actually mean 'didn't'?
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th November 15:58
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Do you think that when we leave the EU, immigration from the EU will continue unchecked?The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
bmw535i said:
So we have no control over immigration from the EU.
Not quite but I will not argue.bmw535i said:
If we're not in the EU we will be able to control it and subsequently change the non EU immigration rules.
We can change our non EU immigration rules whether we are in the EU or out.bmw535i said:
The lack of EU control has clearly resulted in what could be considered draconian and unfair immigration controls being implemented on non EU migrants.
No rather stupid actions of the UK governments in a) not restricting access when the E8 joined, and b) making a rather stupid pledge forced the Government to change non EU migrants rules.Let’s not forget your original statement was.
bmw535i said:
We do not have full control over our non EU immigration policy.
This remains factually incorrect.bmw535i said:
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Do you think that when we leave the EU, immigration from the EU will continue unchecked?The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Do you accept that this so-called uncontrolled (it isn't in reality) immigration from the EU countries was caused by UK Government policy rather than as a default aspect of EU membership?
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Are you making the assumption that everyone voted to leave just because of immigration concerns? The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
I had 273 reasons for leave (OK 272 but at 273 the Eurovision was a little luxury in the list - call it my room 101)
B'stard Child said:
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Are you making the assumption that everyone voted to leave just because of immigration concerns? The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
I had 273 reasons for leave (OK 272 but at 273 the Eurovision was a little luxury in the list - call it my room 101)
SilverSixer said:
bmw535i said:
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Do you think that when we leave the EU, immigration from the EU will continue unchecked?The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Do you accept that this so-called uncontrolled (it isn't in reality) immigration from the EU countries was caused by UK Government policy rather than as a default aspect of EU membership?
We will have to agree to disagree on the SM issue as I think we will no longer be a member post Brexit.
bmw535i said:
Before I answer your question I will have to ask a couple to fully understand your position. Firstly you say that immigration from the EU will continue unchecked, and then you go on to say in reality it isn't uncontrolled. Can you clarify your position on this? Secondly, if you do think it's controlled, can you explain what controls are in place?
We will have to agree to disagree on the SM issue as I think we will no longer be a member post Brexit.
At the risk of answering for him, my view is that market forces control economic immigration from the EU. If the opportunity for better earnings didn't exist then EU economic migrants would stop coming here. Note, these people are different to economic migrants for outside the EU where wages will be vastly different, in most cases, to even some of the poorest countries within the EU.We will have to agree to disagree on the SM issue as I think we will no longer be a member post Brexit.
Mrr T said:
bmw535i said:
So we have no control over immigration from the EU.
Not quite but I will not argue.bmw535i said:
If we're not in the EU we will be able to control it and subsequently change the non EU immigration rules.
We can change our non EU immigration rules whether we are in the EU or out.bmw535i said:
The lack of EU control has clearly resulted in what could be considered draconian and unfair immigration controls being implemented on non EU migrants.
No rather stupid actions of the UK governments in a) not restricting access when the E8 joined, and b) making a rather stupid pledge forced the Government to change non EU migrants rules.Let’s not forget your original statement was.
bmw535i said:
We do not have full control over our non EU immigration policy.
This remains factually incorrect.2. So the government have been "forced to change non EU migrants rules" by themselves. Okaaaaay.
3. We do not have full control over our non EU immigration policy - see point 2.
We will no doubt never agree on that, but I'd like to know what actual experience you have had of working with non EU migration and how those rules are changing/have changed. On the face of it, you seem to not have much idea and are a little bit naive.
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child said:
SilverSixer said:
B'stard Child, what I was saying my mate was right about is that it wasn't the EU's fault that he had problems getting his wife and child in to the country. The situation around immigration in to this country at the moment is entirely of our making - it was in our power to avert it many years ago, we chose not to, it was never the EUs fault, never an EU "edict", EU law, or any default facet of EU membership - it was our democratically elected government's choice.
The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
Are you making the assumption that everyone voted to leave just because of immigration concerns? The notion that we needed to leave the EU to control immigration was and remains a fallacy. The EU was blamed because it was easy to do so, without explaining the tedious underlying truths to people, and this was exploited by those who opposed the EU on ideological grounds rather than evidence.
We are being taken out of the EU on a false prospectus, and this is only one of many of those fallacies.
I had 273 reasons for leave (OK 272 but at 273 the Eurovision was a little luxury in the list - call it my room 101)
1. the UK joined a common market it morphed into something different - I didn't like what it turned into - it wasn't just a common market any more - it was a binary choice I voted leave.
TTwiggy said:
At the risk of answering for him, my view is that market forces control economic immigration from the EU. If the opportunity for better earnings didn't exist then EU economic migrants would stop coming here. Note, these people are different to economic migrants for outside the EU where wages will be vastly different, in most cases, to even some of the poorest countries within the EU.
Are you suggesting a method of controlling EU immigration would be to reduce the minimum wage?bmw535i said:
TTwiggy said:
At the risk of answering for him, my view is that market forces control economic immigration from the EU. If the opportunity for better earnings didn't exist then EU economic migrants would stop coming here. Note, these people are different to economic migrants for outside the EU where wages will be vastly different, in most cases, to even some of the poorest countries within the EU.
Are you suggesting a method of controlling EU immigration would be to reduce the minimum wage?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff