Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)
Discussion
TonyToniTone said:
I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
It's pretty irrelevant as we're not staying in the single market.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBhkdfnXsSw
TonyToniTone said:
I realise there is a possibility it could well happen and so be it but you need to stop assuming everyone that voted No has the same expectations as you.
I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
Care you explain how we are going to stay in the single market? Are the EU going to allow the UK to dilute one of their four freedoms?I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
It is clear to the majority of MP's that the UK will take back control of all migration and dictate the terms of how migration into the UK will work for EU residents. Due to the rules set out by the EU that means we are leaving the single market. The only way this will change is if the EU relent one of their four freedoms.
TonyToniTone said:
I realise there is a possibility it could well happen and so be it but you need to stop assuming everyone that voted No has the same expectations as you.
I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
What on Earth makes you think that I have a problem with the Single Market?I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
I'm all in favour of free trade.
TonyToniTone said:
I realise there is a possibility it could well happen and so be it but you need to stop assuming everyone that voted No has the same expectations as you.
I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
No Fuss, The UK won't be in the Single Market, as the UK won't be a member of the European Union.I also hope you are not going to cause a fuss if we do stay in the single market.
That was made crystal clear prior to the referendum by both Leave and Remain campaigns.
The UK won't be in the Customs Union either.
Elysium said:
You are missing the point.
If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
16 million MUST be listened to, you say? If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 8th December 20:33
Shame that you clearly think that the 17.5 million should not be listened to.
No amount of mealy mouthed doublespeak can disguise the clear agenda of a few ardent Remainers. People like you are an absolute disgrace. You dress up your determination to thwart the outcome of the vote in the clothes of faux concern for the future of the country. You select, twist and willfully misinterpret data. You seek constantly to talk down the Country. You insult, belittle and smear your oponents. You pretend that things were confused or unclear when they are not.
You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
Get it through your thick skull, we are leaving. And we are leaving the SM too ( unless Brussels sees sense and gives us a deal to stay that ends FMOP) We all knew it. We voted for it.
andymadmak said:
16 million MUST be listened to, you say?
Shame that you clearly think that the 17.5 million should not be listened to.
No amount of mealy mouthed doublespeak can disguise the clear agenda of a few ardent Remainers. People like you are an absolute disgrace. You dress up your determination to thwart the outcome of the vote in the clothes of faux concern for the future of the country. You select, twist and willfully misinterpret data. You seek constantly to talk down the Country. You insult, belittle and smear your oponents. You pretend that things were confused or unclear when they are not.
You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
Get it through your thick skull, we are leaving. And we are leaving the SM too ( unless Brussels sees sense and gives us a deal to stay that ends FMOP) We all knew it. We voted for it.
Christ. You sound like don4l. Except with slightly longer sentences. Shame that you clearly think that the 17.5 million should not be listened to.
No amount of mealy mouthed doublespeak can disguise the clear agenda of a few ardent Remainers. People like you are an absolute disgrace. You dress up your determination to thwart the outcome of the vote in the clothes of faux concern for the future of the country. You select, twist and willfully misinterpret data. You seek constantly to talk down the Country. You insult, belittle and smear your oponents. You pretend that things were confused or unclear when they are not.
You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
Get it through your thick skull, we are leaving. And we are leaving the SM too ( unless Brussels sees sense and gives us a deal to stay that ends FMOP) We all knew it. We voted for it.
don4l said:
Greg66 said:
Hahaha! I hadn't seen that - don posted while I was typing!
You think that we aren't leaving?Our Prime Minister has explained to us what Brexit means.
What bit of her explanation was too difficult for you to understand?
Haven't you got someone elsewhere who you can entertain with tales of how the tides work?
andymadmak said:
FMOP
I've noticed that when Remainers talk to Leavers about the Single Market they use the term "free movement of labour" (FMOL). When they are talking to each other it's free movement of people (FMOP). I had a look at the relevant EU treaties and they split the difference - free movement of workers (FMOW).As far as I can see, FMOL is more or less compatible with controlled immigration. FMOP isn't. FMOW might be, depending on how you define "workers". That term doesn't seem to be defined in the treaties. I'd say there is a fair amount of room there for a negotiated compromise, if both the UK govt and the EU were interested in achieving one.
BlackLabel said:
Well that escalated quickly.
Appeals to the popular will threaten parliamentary sovereignty. Use of referendums to bypass constraints on executive power has an illiberal history
I've not seen the full article as I don't subscribe to the FT but there is a major difference between the June 23rd referendum in the UK and Mussolini and Hitler is that the then UK leadership prior to the referendum wanted us to remain in the UK (or at least, that was the very clear message they gave) but the result was the opposite, whilst MUssolini and Hitler got the result they wanted. In my opinion it somewhat undermines the argument being made, and the final line. Appeals to the popular will threaten parliamentary sovereignty. Use of referendums to bypass constraints on executive power has an illiberal history
FT.com said:
In a recent column, the former Conservative leader, Iain Duncan Smith, an influential and passionate Brexiter, asks why “unelected judges have the right to supersede the wishes of the elected members of parliament, and through them the government”. Yet that is not at all what the court did. It ruled that the government has no right to ignore parliament when triggering the Article 50 leaving process. Mr Duncan Smith’s argument is that parliamentary sovereignty allows the executive to ignore members of parliament altogether. That is to enthrone the principle while emptying it of most of its content.
How could Mr Duncan Smith reach such a surprising conclusion? The answer lies in the referendum. His view is that, since 17.4m voters chose Leave last June, “the people” have spoken. All that is now needed is for the executive to implement that choice, untrammelled by parliament. Use of referendums to bypass any and all institutional constraints on the exercise of executive power has a long and deeply illiberal, indeed anti-democratic, history. Louis Napoleon established a dictatorship by means of referendums in the 19th century. Mussolini and Hitler did the same thing in the 20th century. In all these cases, charismatic rulers legitimised the overthrow of restraints on their power by appealing to the people in this way.
Until recently, I thought this was inconceivable in the UK. I am rather less confident now.
How could Mr Duncan Smith reach such a surprising conclusion? The answer lies in the referendum. His view is that, since 17.4m voters chose Leave last June, “the people” have spoken. All that is now needed is for the executive to implement that choice, untrammelled by parliament. Use of referendums to bypass any and all institutional constraints on the exercise of executive power has a long and deeply illiberal, indeed anti-democratic, history. Louis Napoleon established a dictatorship by means of referendums in the 19th century. Mussolini and Hitler did the same thing in the 20th century. In all these cases, charismatic rulers legitimised the overthrow of restraints on their power by appealing to the people in this way.
Until recently, I thought this was inconceivable in the UK. I am rather less confident now.
andymadmak said:
Elysium said:
You are missing the point.
If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
16 million MUST be listened to, you say? If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 8th December 20:33
Shame that you clearly think that the 17.5 million should not be listened to.
andymadmak said:
No amount of mealy mouthed doublespeak can disguise the clear agenda of a few ardent Remainers. People like you are an absolute disgrace.You dress up your determination to thwart the outcome of the vote in the clothes of faux concern for the future of the country. You select, twist and willfully misinterpret data. You seek constantly to talk down the Country. You insult, belittle and smear your oponents. You pretend that things were confused or unclear when they are not.
You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
A decent rant, but I haven't done any of those things.You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
andymadmak said:
Get it through your thick skull, we are leaving. And we are leaving the SM too ( unless Brussels sees sense and gives us a deal to stay that ends FMOP) We all knew it. We voted for it.
No one voted to leave the single market. You voted to leave the EU. I voted to remain in it. Could you point out in my post where I said we were not leaving?
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 8th December 23:53
don4l said:
Greg66 said:
Hahaha! I hadn't seen that - don posted while I was typing!
You think that we aren't leaving?Our Prime Minister has explained to us what Brexit means.
What bit of her explanation was too difficult for you to understand?
k it up? Of course. Elysium said:
andymadmak said:
Elysium said:
You are missing the point.
If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
16 million MUST be listened to, you say? If the vote had gone the other way 16m leave voters would not have shrugged and said fair enough, let's stay in the EU for ever and never talk about this again. Most would have continued to support leaving the EU and people like Farage would continued to campaign.
If the Govt had looked at the vote and said we must honour the will of the people "remain means remain" then signed up to cede sovereignty to Brussels, join schengen and support the European army the leave voters would have gone berserk.
Yet somehow you think that remain voters should ignore the fact that they think this is a bad decision and support it wholeheartedly and without question. Despite the fact that the Govt does not seem to have a plan and is desperately trying to avoid involving the people who we have voted to represent us.
It is completely unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that.
The vote was to leave and we are making preparations to do that. There are millions who think it is a bad idea and are worried that it will damage our prospects. They are not going to change their minds or be bullied into thinking differently. The only way to get them onside is to listen too, respect and act on their concerns. May has entirely failed to do that, which has made matters worse. However there are signs that Labour get it. The motion yesterday is a massively positive step. Not only has it put the Govt under pressure to share the plan, but it has also shown that MPs are not poised to thwart the referendum. Instead they have voted roughly in the same proportion to support the Brexit timeline as they did to hold the referendum.
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 8th December 20:33
Shame that you clearly think that the 17.5 million should not be listened to.
andymadmak said:
No amount of mealy mouthed doublespeak can disguise the clear agenda of a few ardent Remainers. People like you are an absolute disgrace.You dress up your determination to thwart the outcome of the vote in the clothes of faux concern for the future of the country. You select, twist and willfully misinterpret data. You seek constantly to talk down the Country. You insult, belittle and smear your oponents. You pretend that things were confused or unclear when they are not.
You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
A decent rant, but I haven't done any of those things.You demand to be heard but refuse to listen.
andymadmak said:
Get it through your thick skull, we are leaving. And we are leaving the SM too ( unless Brussels sees sense and gives us a deal to stay that ends FMOP) We all knew it. We voted for it.
No one voted to leave the single market. You voted to leave the EU. I voted to remain in it. Could you point out in my post where I said we were not leaving?
Edited by Elysium on Thursday 8th December 23:53
Cameron/Osborne stated as much prior to the referendum, Gove/Johnson stated the same, the evidence has been posted umpteen times.
Don't tell me I didn't vote to leave the single market, I did.
Hannan, rational self interest will overcome the eurocrats fury
Meanwhile over at the Spectator, Matthew Parris accuses 17million of being racists
Meanwhile over at the Spectator, Matthew Parris accuses 17million of being racists
blindswelledrat said:
The single biggest thing for me is my livelihood. My business is dependant on a decent economy. It has been consistently tough since the big recession and has only just started to get better in the last couple of years, but I still see the economy as extremely fragile.
An upheaval of this magnitude could be disastrous I believe. The combination of higher costs, inflation, lack of investment and lack of people to do jobs is absolutely terrifying to me.
I so badly want to be wrong on this I will admit that I have been pleasantly surprised post-vote as I definitely believed the vote itself would kill confidence and would cause a recession just on this alone and I was wrong.
And I may be wrong on the long term view to. Or I might be right. Whichever turns out to be the case, I don't think I will notice any significant change for the better where in 15 years time everything will be all rosy because we left the EU. I do not see any potential gain at all for a huge risk
Same question back to you: Fast forward 10 years- what are you hoping to see as a result of leaving?
I was a leave voter, in 10 years my fully perfect outcome would be:An upheaval of this magnitude could be disastrous I believe. The combination of higher costs, inflation, lack of investment and lack of people to do jobs is absolutely terrifying to me.
I so badly want to be wrong on this I will admit that I have been pleasantly surprised post-vote as I definitely believed the vote itself would kill confidence and would cause a recession just on this alone and I was wrong.
And I may be wrong on the long term view to. Or I might be right. Whichever turns out to be the case, I don't think I will notice any significant change for the better where in 15 years time everything will be all rosy because we left the EU. I do not see any potential gain at all for a huge risk
Same question back to you: Fast forward 10 years- what are you hoping to see as a result of leaving?
Somehow the UK government was able to communicate & consult with UK citizens about the end goal without undermining it's negotiation position and people that were initially worried about the future were reassured and listened to (I have zero idea how to square this circle).
The EU shorn of it's least committed large member gets on with being a proper political union with common fiscal policy, maybe a couple more of the other less committed members also drop out so the EU can get on with it quickly.
The Northern EU countries who do well from having an undervalued currency start sending fiscal transfers to the Med. (Much like London & the South East do to the rest of the UK). The Med countries are then able to start to tackle their youth unemployment and long term structural problems that come from having an overvalued currency. (Much like the rest of the UK is able to do/mitigate with the fiscal transfers from London & the South East).
The EU starts to have proper economic growth again and it's great because we want our neighbours to be prosperous and not waste their human resources like they do today.
The EU and UK agree a low barrier trade agreement that has a net cost of 1-2%. Even in my perfect future I don't think it's wise to have zero barrier access between 2 different countries as I think you at least need the option at times to protect culturally important industries. I think we will also have to accept some barriers if state-aid and nationalisation rules come under UK control as the EU may need a way to protect against that if we choose to use them in the future.
The UK continues to have access to semi-skilled & skilled workers from the EU with almost no restrictions and this is reciprocated the other way.
The UK continues to have access to unskilled workers from the EU, but there are restrictions that can be set by the UK government, debated by our political parties and can be changed to suit what the UK population votes for at general elections. I would personally favour low restrictions as I think it's almost impossible for someone central to set the right criteria to properly suit the economy, but I know that other UK citizens disagree with me and I think it should be a UK choice. This is also reciprocated.
Any EU nationals already settled in the UK are able to stay and this is reciprocated the other way.
EU nationals have almost unrestricted access to visit the UK for leisure / holidays / retirement, etc... and this is reciprocated.
UK & EU continue to co-operate on defence, intelligence, energy, science, R&D, standards, etc...
The UK still sends some funds to the EU to help with joint projects, the funds are accounted for transparently and the EU accounts even get audit sign off.
The European Health Insurance Card system actually starts to work for UK citizens elsewhere in Europe!
The UK has a decent number of low-barrier trade deals with non-EU countries that were not possible within the EU and benefit all parties. Non-EU immigration & emigration increases as either an absolute number or as a percentage.
The majority of the UK is eventually happy with the compromises, but some people continue to campaign for less co-operation with the EU and others campaign for us to join again.
I'm happily retired in Costa Rica.
don'tbesilly said:
I did vote to leave the single market, by voting to leave the EU, membership of the Single market would be relinquished.
Cameron/Osborne stated as much prior to the referendum, Gove/Johnson stated the same, the evidence has been posted umpteen times.
Don't tell me I didn't vote to leave the single market, I did.
It is a simple statement of fact that the options on the ballot were leave or remain in the EU. I am not questioning the reason you voted. I am just pointing out that the single market was not mentioned on the ballot paper. Cameron/Osborne stated as much prior to the referendum, Gove/Johnson stated the same, the evidence has been posted umpteen times.
Don't tell me I didn't vote to leave the single market, I did.
Leaving the single market is not a binary thing, there are levels of engagement. Terminology is a big issue here.
The EFTA states are in the single market in everything but name and I posted a link earlier in which Gove suggested pre-referendum that we would join EFTA if we voted to leave.
I strongly suspect that we will end up with a bespoke '3 freedom' membership of the single market. Rules are made to be broken.
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