Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[danllama]

bmw535i said:

TTwiggy said:

Why would an EU migrant be using Wester Union? Do you think a French banker in the City is getting paid cash in hand?

Do you think all EU migrants are French bankers, or did it occur to you that there may be some EU migrants flying under the radar?

You've just proved my naive believers theory. Thank you.

Twiggy, I don't think you thought about that question before you asked it. My ex girlfriend is an EU resident, and she sent home her cash in hand pay via Western Union. As did all of her work friends from the same country.

Its unbelievably naive to believe they're contributing economically to our society, although i'm sure the figures will be fudged to support that theory.

[don4l]

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

[B'stard Child]

don4l said:

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

The Government - it's all their fault......

chuckles at the immigrant comment - you really do over play that card

[don'tbesilly]

B'stard Child said:

don4l said:

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

The Government - it's all their fault......

chuckles at the immigrant comment - you really do over play that card

In fairness it's a different type of card that we usually see played, I rather suspect we'll see the other card later on, it's an inevitability!

[B'stard Child]

don'tbesilly said:

B'stard Child said:

don4l said:

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

The Government - it's all their fault......

chuckles at the immigrant comment - you really do over play that card

In fairness it's a different type of card that we usually see played, I rather suspect we'll see the other card later on, it's an inevitability!

It's the same card just played face up or face down........

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

[alfie2244]

B'stard Child said:

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

I think he should show us all of his cards face up so we all know exactly what cards he has got and how he is likely to use them.......who the hell does he think he is?.... TM FFS???

[B'stard Child]

alfie2244 said:

B'stard Child said:

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

I think he should show us all of his cards face up so we all know exactly what cards he has got and how he is likely to use them.......who the hell does he think he is?.... TM FFS???

I'm still not convinced there is more than one card....

I'm also convinced that TM does have a plan (it might not be a great one but it'll do to kick things off) - despite the media constantly saying that you only say you are not prepared to give a running commentary is spin for not having a plan

Naive - I must be

[alfie2244]

B'stard Child said:

alfie2244 said:

B'stard Child said:

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

I think he should show us all of his cards face up so we all know exactly what cards he has got and how he is likely to use them.......who the hell does he think he is?.... TM FFS???

I'm still not convinced there is more than one card....

I'm also convinced that TM does have a plan (it might not be a great one but it'll do to kick things off) - despite the media constantly saying that you only say you are not prepared to give a running commentary is spin for not having a plan

Naive - I must be

I wonder if it will be Ange or her successor who develops the Gerexit plan?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/738053/Germans...

[don4l]

B'stard Child said:

alfie2244 said:

B'stard Child said:

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

I think he should show us all of his cards face up so we all know exactly what cards he has got and how he is likely to use them.......who the hell does he think he is?.... TM FFS???

I'm still not convinced there is more than one card....

I'm also convinced that TM does have a plan (it might not be a great one but it'll do to kick things off) - despite the media constantly saying that you only say you are not prepared to give a running commentary is spin for not having a plan

Naive - I must be

I wish that I shared your confidence in TM.

I started out thinking that she was a Remainer, and I was worried.

I was listening to the radio on the day that she announced her cabinet. I was very impressed, and came to the conclusion that she was a closet Leaver. However, I now think that I was wrong.

I had heard of David Davis and Liam Fox. I had great visions of a Thatcherite government.

My mistake was that I didn't know much about people like Hammond and Fallon.

My current opinion is that she is trying to be all things to all people (in the Conservative Party).

In other words, she appears to lack conviction.

It is a real pity that Michael Gove didn't have a bit more charisma.


PS. You couldn't ask for a better "card" than the "British immigrant" card.

It really winds up all the lefties who claim to be "Pro-Immigration".

One of them insinuated that I was a thick Paddy. You have no idea how hurt I felt by this racist comment. In fact, I think that Bill the moderator was so annoyed that he almost deleted the comment.

Edited by don4l on Wednesday 30th November 20:26

[///ajd]

FiF said:

Apologies for the selective quote.

I've written on here before of the difficulties and extensive time consuming administration involved with this. It is incredibly difficult sometimes, and it ends up at times with people who would actually be a benefit to society being refused simply because of some small wrinkle or unanswered question that might cause a difficulty down the line, all because non EU immigration is so tightly screwed down because that from the EU has been allowed to proceed without any effective control. There's also the case where, for example, someone puts in a thesis and at their viva voce receive a pass from the examiners with some modifications required, which can require 3-6 months of extra work, sometimes a year. Enormous problems to extend their visa and uncertainties all round. Now people might regard these as insignificant issues, speaking of small wrinkles or getting a visa extension, too many wrinkles / refusals from HO and you lose your sponsor status, thus the ability to bring in people who are paying to study here, bringing in money to the nation and adding to our society and talent pool.

Yet despite enormous efforts that are put in we get the tiresome broad brush oblique slimy sneers about Leavers being Leavers because they're just a bit racist, and when the repeat perpetrators are called out on this they try to hide behind semantics with protestations that they didn't exactly write that, despite the clear implications being made.

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

how on earth did you come up with that ridiculous question?

The EU will decide the rules for UK migrants and we are a long way from that even being discussed. I'd imagine we'll be able to travel to the EU just the same as we travel to many other countries with little to no restrictions. With that said, why do you think it's our right to do so? Any country should have the power to impose whatever restrictions they see fit.

[///ajd]

bmw535i said:

///ajd said:

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

how on earth did you come up with that ridiculous question?

The EU will decide the rules for UK migrants and we are a long way from that even being discussed. I'd imagine we'll be able to travel to the EU just the same as we travel to many other countries with little to no restrictions. With that said, why do you think it's our right to do so? Any country should have the power to impose whatever restrictions they see fit.

Of course any nation can do as it pleases for non-EU immigration - though I see you have struggled with this rather obvious fact in the posts above. Another day, 535i posts more fundamental falsehoods.

It is interesting to hear on one hand how impossible non-EU immigration is etc. etc., and then in the next breath hear how the EU will welcome post brexit non-EU Brits with open arms, very easy to work in EU as before etc.

Which is it brexiteers? Can't be both!

Cake and Eat it - is that the EU saying FRO? How very dare they!

[don4l]

B'stard Child said:

don'tbesilly said:

B'stard Child said:

don4l said:

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

The Government - it's all their fault......

chuckles at the immigrant comment - you really do over play that card

In fairness it's a different type of card that we usually see played, I rather suspect we'll see the other card later on, it's an inevitability!

It's the same card just played face up or face down........

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

FiF gave out to me about 10 months ago. He correctly stated that my style wasn't "persuasive". I replied that it was impossible to persuade these unpatriotic(not the word that I used at the time), bedwetters.

So, yes, I deliberately play the same card.

Every now and again I try to engage a Remainer in rational debate. It never lasts more than a post, or two, before it descends into abuse.

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

Of course any nation can do as it pleases for non-EU immigration - though I see you have struggled with this rather obvious fact in the posts above. Another day, 535i posts more fundamental falsehoods.

It is interesting to hear on one hand how impossible non-EU immigration is etc. etc., and then in the next breath hear how the EU will welcome post brexit non-EU Brits with open arms, very easy to work in EU as before etc.

Which is it brexiteers? Can't be both!

Cake and Eat it - is that the EU saying FRO? How very dare they!

What falsehoods have I posted?

I don't really get your points.

1. It is difficult for non EU migrants to enter the U.K. Fact.
2. Nobody knows how the EU will treat brits after Brexit. Fact.

It is stupid to compare current UK rules towards non EU migrants, and the complete unknown future EU rules towards UK citizens.

[FiF]

bmw535i said:

///ajd said:

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

how on earth did you come up with that ridiculous question?

The EU will decide the rules for UK migrants and we are a long way from that even being discussed. I'd imagine we'll be able to travel to the EU just the same as we travel to many other countries with little to no restrictions. With that said, why do you think it's our right to do so? Any country should have the power to impose whatever restrictions they see fit.

I have no idea either how that first question arose from my post, which made it absolutely clear, at least I thought so, that all this is a result of the UK government screwing with the rules to a ridiculous extent simply because of an election promise that was not achievable. Therefore they attacked the only part of the immigration figures they can affect with over the top onerous demands and threats on potential immigrants, the sponsor organisations and the staff attempting to deal with a system that is complicated, bureaucratic yet chronically underhanded on the Govt side.

So whilst it's true to say it's UK Govt doing this and not the EU, the influence of the way freedom of movement has been permitted to proceed cannot be dismissed out of hand just by saying not the EU.

But hey no opportunity missed for a stupid strawman to surface from the usual.

[///ajd]

bmw535i said:

What falsehoods have I posted?

I don't really get your points.

1. It is difficult for non EU migrants to enter the U.K. Fact.
2. Nobody knows how the EU will treat brits after Brexit. Fact.

It is stupid to compare current UK rules towards non EU migrants, and the complete unknown future EU rules towards UK citizens.

You stated that the EU had forced the UK to take measures over non-EU immigration. False.

Completely unknown rules? Do EU countries not have their own well defined rules for non-EU country immigration already?

Are you aware of the EU clue card scheme?

[FiF]

don4l said:

B'stard Child said:

don'tbesilly said:

B'stard Child said:

don4l said:

SilverSixer said:

Anecdotes about friends are all well and good, a friend of mine tried for about 3 years to get his non-EU wife and child in to the country (they're here now at great financial and personal expense), but he doesn't think that was anything to do with the EU and blames the UK government's intransigence and voted Remain.

It took me less than 5 minutes to get my Spanish wife in. Spain wasn't even a member of the EEC then, and I was an immigrant.

Why do you think that it is so much more difficult these days?

The Government - it's all their fault......

chuckles at the immigrant comment - you really do over play that card

In fairness it's a different type of card that we usually see played, I rather suspect we'll see the other card later on, it's an inevitability!

It's the same card just played face up or face down........

Are you saying he has more than one card? Sheesh that could get confusing - I mean how could you remember which one you've played and when??

Some people are just much cleverer than I am doffs cap & shuffles off

FiF gave out to me about 10 months ago. He correctly stated that my style wasn't "persuasive". I replied that it was impossible to persuade these unpatriotic(not the word that I used at the time), bedwetters.

So, yes, I deliberately play the same card.

Every now and again I try to engage a Remainer in rational debate. It never lasts more than a post, or two, before it descends into abuse.

To be perfectly honest don4l, there are some days where I have to apply severe restraint to avoid spoiling my manners and referring to some of the Remainers in terms far worse than bedwetters. Frankly I'd call some of them a word beginning with C, except it would be both inappropriate and inaccurate, let's face it can't be a C*** with no warmth nor depth.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

I have no idea either how that first question arose from my post, which made it absolutely clear, at least I thought so, that all this is a result of the UK government screwing with the rules to a ridiculous extent simply because of an election promise that was not achievable. Therefore they attacked the only part of the immigration figures they can affect with over the top onerous demands and threats on potential immigrants, the sponsor organisations and the staff attempting to deal with a system that is complicated, bureaucratic yet chronically underhanded on the Govt side.

So whilst it's true to say it's UK Govt doing this and not the EU, the influence of the way freedom of movement has been permitted to proceed cannot be dismissed out of hand just by saying not the EU.

But hey no opportunity missed for a stupid strawman to surface from the usual.

Completely agree with all of that. It's abundantly clear that EU influence is apparent in our non EU migration rules. I have discussed this with several civil servants who are in agreement. Civil servants who deal with recruiting and employing 5000 soldiers from a wide variety of countries all over the world.

I deal with these issues on a daily basis. I don't understand why people find it hard to grasp.

[///ajd]

FiF said:

bmw535i said:

///ajd said:

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

how on earth did you come up with that ridiculous question?

The EU will decide the rules for UK migrants and we are a long way from that even being discussed. I'd imagine we'll be able to travel to the EU just the same as we travel to many other countries with little to no restrictions. With that said, why do you think it's our right to do so? Any country should have the power to impose whatever restrictions they see fit.

I have no idea either how that first question arose from my post, which made it absolutely clear, at least I thought so, that all this is a result of the UK government screwing with the rules to a ridiculous extent simply because of an election promise that was not achievable. Therefore they attacked the only part of the immigration figures they can affect with over the top onerous demands and threats on potential immigrants, the sponsor organisations and the staff attempting to deal with a system that is complicated, bureaucratic yet chronically underhanded on the Govt side.

So whilst it's true to say it's UK Govt doing this and not the EU, the influence of the way freedom of movement has been permitted to proceed cannot be dismissed out of hand just by saying not the EU.

But hey no opportunity missed for a stupid strawman to surface from the usual.

So not a stupid strawman then.

You original post directly linked the difficulty of immigration to the UK to the EU. Read it again. Trotted out straight from the UKIP handbook.

You are not the only one who struggles not to dig out the expletives when faced with such utter bks.

[///ajd]

///ajd said:

FiF said:

Apologies for the selective quote.

I've written on here before of the difficulties and extensive time consuming administration involved with this. It is incredibly difficult sometimes, and it ends up at times with people who would actually be a benefit to society being refused simply because of some small wrinkle or unanswered question that might cause a difficulty down the line, all because non EU immigration is so tightly screwed down because that from the EU has been allowed to proceed without any effective control. There's also the case where, for example, someone puts in a thesis and at their viva voce receive a pass from the examiners with some modifications required, which can require 3-6 months of extra work, sometimes a year. Enormous problems to extend their visa and uncertainties all round. Now people might regard these as insignificant issues, speaking of small wrinkles or getting a visa extension, too many wrinkles / refusals from HO and you lose your sponsor status, thus the ability to bring in people who are paying to study here, bringing in money to the nation and adding to our society and talent pool.

Yet despite enormous efforts that are put in we get the tiresome broad brush oblique slimy sneers about Leavers being Leavers because they're just a bit racist, and when the repeat perpetrators are called out on this they try to hide behind semantics with protestations that they didn't exactly write that, despite the clear implications being made.

Is this how hard it will be for UK citizens to move and work in the EU once we leave? It sounds a horrific reduction in the freedoms and rights of UK citizens if this is the outcome of Brexit.

Or does the sovereign UK government just make it this hard as it wants to?

Non-EU immigration is screwed down by the UK government because it has chosen to do so. Not because of the EU.

Lets have it in bold.

EU to blame.

And yet you know its nonsense.

Why are you smearing the EU who are not to blame?

Why would you do that?