Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[John145]

jonnyb said:

I deleted the post as there's just no point.

But we are way past valuable or otherwise. We need immigration in the 100s of thousands, and then hope they all have a st load of kids.

By all means bury your head in the sand..

Where's the end game? I really don't understand why you think workers for the sake of workers will save anything...

Where is the social care, where is the housing, where is the investment?

[jonnyb]

John145 said:

jonnyb said:

I deleted the post as there's just no point.

But we are way past valuable or otherwise. We need immigration in the 100s of thousands, and then hope they all have a st load of kids.

By all means bury your head in the sand..

Where's the end game? I really don't understand why you think workers for the sake of workers will save anything...

Where is the social care, where is the housing, where is the investment?

All very good questions, and if governments of the day had invested properly mass immigration would not be required.

Unfortunately they didn't, so where's the end game? Put up with mass immigration, watch the country go bust or face huge, and I mean HUGE cuts to our standard of living.

Take your pick.

[John145]

jonnyb said:

John145 said:

jonnyb said:

I deleted the post as there's just no point.

But we are way past valuable or otherwise. We need immigration in the 100s of thousands, and then hope they all have a st load of kids.

By all means bury your head in the sand..

Where's the end game? I really don't understand why you think workers for the sake of workers will save anything...

Where is the social care, where is the housing, where is the investment?

All very good questions, and if governments of the day had invested properly mass immigration would not be required.

Unfortunately they didn't, so where's the end game? Put up with mass immigration, watch the country go bust or face huge, and I mean HUGE cuts to our standard of living.

Take your pick.

Still doesn't make sense. There's a contradiction in your idea we either have mass immigration or cuts.

If we have mass unskilled immigration house prices go up, salaries go down, living standards get worse, social care deteriorates.

We need efficiency and productivity not a glut of labour.

[B'stard Child]

jonnyb said:

Here's the thing about immigration. We need it, desperately!

Without it, our country will collapse, and that's not an overstatement. We don't need 10s of thousands, we need 100s of thousands, if not millions.

Why? We desperately need tax payers. It doesn't matter at this point how much tax they pay, just that they are paying it.

Our population is ageing, our birth rate is falling. There is not a huge pot of money that's going to pay pensions or for the NHS, let alone defence, roads, ect. It's all got to come out of current taxation, and that means we need tax payers.

We can argue about which kind of tax payers we want all we like, were past that point. At this point we just need people to pay the bills.

Scientists think the first person to live to 1000 is alive today, just think what that means, even if they are half right.

Not sure I want to live to 100 - quality of life is more important that a telegram from the Queen at 100

What we need is a stable and sustainable planet.

If we bring in a million people to boost our tax take to support the current ageing population I'm betting many will stay - get married have kids (yes I know the weather isn't great)

This will result in an increasing burden on the next generation to pay for the pensions and healthcare of them and so the spiral will continue

One in one out.............

[Fastdruid]

don4l said:

BBC R4 had a discussion about migrant fruit pickers this morning. They were suggesting that Poles feel less welcome than before the Brexit vote. Next year we could have a big problem with fruit rotting in the fields.

Really BBC? What a load of bks.

don4l said:

Trying to get to the real truth is as difficult with the BBC as it is with the Mail. One little snipped revealed that the weaker pound meant that they can earn more in Scandanavia.

There is the real reason. As I said before they're seeing a 15-20% drop in wages and if the £ goes down futher (which it kind of needs to) it'll be even worse.

As ever though it's all about the money. The dirt cheap East European labour has distorted the market, farmers have got used to paying peanuts (which becomes a very reasonable wage for unskilled work when "back home") and have priced any local workers out.

[paulrockliffe]

jonnyb said:

Here's the thing about immigration. We need it, desperately!

Without it, our country will collapse, and that's not an overstatement. We don't need 10s of thousands, we need 100s of thousands, if not millions.

Why? We desperately need tax payers. It doesn't matter at this point how much tax they pay, just that they are paying it.

Our population is ageing, our birth rate is falling. There is not a huge pot of money that's going to pay pensions or for the NHS, let alone defence, roads, ect. It's all got to come out of current taxation, and that means we need tax payers.

We can argue about which kind of tax payers we want all we like, were past that point. At this point we just need people to pay the bills.

Scientists think the first person to live to 1000 is alive today, just think what that means, even if they are half right.

bks. No offence. What you've described is a ponzi scheme, the solution to people living longer is people working longer amongst other things. It's not adding more and more and more people who go on to be pensioners themselves.

[s2art]

jonnyb said:

I deleted the post as there's just no point.

But we are way past valuable or otherwise. We need immigration in the 100s of thousands, and then hope they all have a st load of kids.

By all means bury your head in the sand..

This looks like bedwetting. We have been importing hundreds of thousands, per year, of relatively young people for many years now, the demographics have changed a bit. And the baby boomers start dying off soon, the oldest will now be 70+. Many of the older BBs will have moved to sunnier climes. Its not the huge problem you think it is.

[Deptford Draylons]

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Bit like the advisory referendum result, then.

Advisory referendum and controlled EU immigration. Genius !

Them's the facts. Boom!

I think you mean you want them to be 'facts' to back your view.
Out of interest,what was the reason you say that it is controlled in any way ? I'll leave aside what the PM said about the binding result of the referendum as you will probably go off your tits crazy about the lies during this period, although oddly its confined only to those on the side of the bus.

If it's not in this thread, it's in the other one.

What the PM said and what the law of the land, this Great Britain, says are two different things. Which has precedence in your view?

Indulge me on the immigration front. I'm interested in what control there is for an EU citizen at Calais today. Flash the passport and get in isn't what I'd call controlled. You may think it is though.

I was quite happy when parliament gave consent for a referendum to take place and the result to be binding and stated as such without any opposition at the time to that. You seem to be suggesting the PM made the biggest lie in the whole referendum when he said it was binding, article 50 would be triggered the next day and we would be out of the single market for sure.I bet you wrote here endlessly about misleading claims like this as you did about a red bus. You did do that , right ?

Yes, the PM's claims were quite evidently as misleading in this regard as was the bus. Hence the legal hullaballoo currently unfolding. Some of us noted this and warned about it before the referendum.

So which was the bigger lie ? The PM and government spending the whole referendum saying the result was binding, the UK would leave the SM, article 50 would be triggered the next day, there would be an economic crash immediately after the result, and emergency budget need, thousands of jobs lost on the result. Or was it the cross party group of people saying they wanted to see £350m wasted on the NHS ?

You were ahead of the game had you seen all that. Could you link some of your posts where you called out the government of the days as misleading the country and saying this was just an advisory vote anyway and given how parliament was so pro Remain, it hardly meant anything anyway.

So was there ever an answer to this and any evidence you yourself were warning this was, in your words, and advisory referendum ?
I don't recall any talk on PH about this at all. All you big red bus rage people ( MrT //ajd and co ) ever mentioning it or how we were greatly mislead by the government of the day. So any of you, do feel free to answer these points, because it does look like you are rather searching around for excuses after your complacency of the leave vote.

[Jockman]

I see that the awful death of Mr Joswik is no longer being treated as a hate crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/bo...

Should Mr Junker be asked to comment on this?

[wc98]

s2art said:

jonnyb said:

I deleted the post as there's just no point.

But we are way past valuable or otherwise. We need immigration in the 100s of thousands, and then hope they all have a st load of kids.

By all means bury your head in the sand..

This looks like bedwetting. We have been importing hundreds of thousands, per year, of relatively young people for many years now, the demographics have changed a bit. And the baby boomers start dying off soon, the oldest will now be 70+. Many of the older BBs will have moved to sunnier climes. Its not the huge problem you think it is.

spot on. i find it laughable that people on a motoring forum that supposedly enjoy driving/riding want to see the roads clogged up with even more people. i was quite looking forward to the bb generation all popping their clogs and the resultant population drop creating more space for a hoon. not bloody now though

[B'stard Child]

Jockman said:

I see that the awful death of Mr Joswik is no longer being treated as a hate crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/bo...

Should Mr Junker be asked to comment on this?

He already has

Junkers said:

When the going gets tough, you have to lie.

[wc98]

saabster14 said:

I think it was reported in sections of the media that "hate crimes" had increased port referendum. I never place too much faith in statistics purely because that can be manipulated in many ways.

I'll counter your anecdotal account with what I've seen: whilst not having witness actual violence, I have discussed the subject with my former colleagues in A+E who informed me that they have seen an increase in minor injuries due to assault, and I'm told that it's been reported to them as hate crimes. Also they report an increase in racism/islamophobia/xenophobia, whatever you want to call it, in young drunk males attending a+e, and seemingly emboldened by the referendum result.
There was a similar emboldnment in a section of Scottish society port independence referendum.

You make some good observations about how other Europeans view brexit.

i must live in a non racist area as i see none of this. neither do the lovely polish couple that live across road from what i could tell having a chat the other night when i dropped some cod fillets off to them . the husband did manage to talk me into taking his father in law fishing while their parents are over for christmas though , not sure i am doing this "racist leave voter" thing right

[don'tbesilly]

wc98 said:

saabster14 said:

I think it was reported in sections of the media that "hate crimes" had increased port referendum. I never place too much faith in statistics purely because that can be manipulated in many ways.

I'll counter your anecdotal account with what I've seen: whilst not having witness actual violence, I have discussed the subject with my former colleagues in A+E who informed me that they have seen an increase in minor injuries due to assault, and I'm told that it's been reported to them as hate crimes. Also they report an increase in racism/islamophobia/xenophobia, whatever you want to call it, in young drunk males attending a+e, and seemingly emboldened by the referendum result.
There was a similar emboldnment in a section of Scottish society port independence referendum.

You make some good observations about how other Europeans view brexit.

i must live in a non racist area as i see none of this. neither do the lovely polish couple that live across road from what i could tell having a chat the other night when i dropped some cod fillets off to them . the husband did manage to talk me into taking his father in law fishing while their parents are over for christmas though , not sure i am doing this "racist leave voter" thing right

According to some, one in particular, you need a pitchfork not a fishing rod!

[saabster14]

wc98 said:

i must live in a non racist area as i see none of this. neither do the lovely polish couple that live across road from what i could tell having a chat the other night when i dropped some cod fillets off to them . the husband did manage to talk me into taking his father in law fishing while their parents are over for christmas though , not sure i am doing this "racist leave voter" thing right

Large city centre A+E, Not representative of other parts of the country, usually because people are drunk, on drugs, injured, pissed off etc etc. It usually brings out the worst in some, and the best in others. So my post was anecdotal, like most of the other posts on here about the same subject.

I personally haven't seen any hate crimes as a result of brexit, in fact I haven't seen any crime, but I spend less and less time in the UK these days.

[wc98]

saabster14 said:

Large city centre A+E, Not representative of other parts of the country, usually because people are drunk, on drugs, injured, pissed off etc etc. It usually brings out the worst in some, and the best in others. So my post was anecdotal, like most of the other posts on here about the same subject.

I personally haven't seen any hate crimes as a result of brexit, in fact I haven't seen any crime, but I spend less and less time in the UK these days.

ahh,ok . anyone that works/worked in a large city a+e department has my respect. my (immigrant) stepmother sometimes does an odd cover shift in the local a+e department, some of the stories are horrific .i cannot get my head around the fact the police are there so often due to people abusing/assaulting the staff that are trying to help them.

[saabster14]

wc98 said:

ahh,ok . anyone that works/worked in a large city a+e department has my respect. my (immigrant) stepmother sometimes does an odd cover shift in the local a+e department, some of the stories are horrific .i cannot get my head around the fact the police are there so often due to people abusing/assaulting the staff that are trying to help them.

believe it or not it can be a good laugh and very rewarding at times. I left for various reasons but still miss the buzz

I remember moving from a small country hospital and working my first night in the big A+E.. I couldn't believe the carnage human beings can reek on each other, stabbing/shooting/domestic violence, but it's important to remember that these people a usually a minority, and that applys to everywhere in the world I've worked. POeople are the same the world over. Which is one of the reasons I don't like seeing people judge others due to skin colour/beliefs/country of birth. We are all citizens of the world, can we all not get along?

Edited by saabster14 on Friday 2nd December 07:38

[anonymous-user]

wc98 said:

i must live in a non racist area as i see none of this. neither do the lovely polish couple that live across road from what i could tell having a chat the other night when i dropped some cod fillets off to them . the husband did manage to talk me into taking his father in law fishing while their parents are over for christmas though , not sure i am doing this "racist leave voter" thing right

I don't think I'm doing it right either - I spend a lot of time trying to persuade the Home Office to let foreigners into this country. To be fair, I'm duty bound to, but all the same, I believe it's the right thing to do.

I think it's pretty terrible the British army is able to recruit soldiers from all over the world and then the Home Office refuse to let their families to even visit. The rules that the government adopted because of the uncontrolled flow of migrants from the EU is having a big effect elsewhere.

With that said, some visitors I know of are in prison or awaiting judicial review on their deportation post prison.

[anonymous-user]

saabster14 said:

believe it or not it can be a good laugh and very rewarding at times. I left for various reasons but still miss the buzz

I remember moving from a small country hospital and working my first night in the big A+E.. I couldn't believe the carnage human beings can reek on each other, stabbing/shooting/domestic violence, but it's important to remember that these people a usually a minority, and that applys to everywhere in the world I've worked. POeople are the same the world over. Which is one of the reasons I don't like seeing people judge others due to skin colour/beliefs/country of birth. We are all citizens of the world, can we all not get along?

Edited by saabster14 on Friday 2nd December 07:38

I must have had different experiences to you because I would definitely not say that people are the same the world over.

[saabster14]

bmw535i said:

I must have had different experiences to you because I would definitely not say that people are the same the world over.

I would, you get nice people, horrible people and everything in between. Like I said in my post above, my major contact with local populations comes via emergency rooms, which tends to bring the best/worst out in people. I haven't noticed any differences between patients in Angola, south Africa, Namibia, brazil, Australia etc. etc. as compared to the UK. There are differences in culture and attitudes. Angolan's, understandably, can be quite hostile to foreigners, particularly south Africans and Ghanaians. That is entirely understandable due to the history of the country. Iranians I found exceptionally welcoming and friendly, but unfortunately they have nutters running the country and stoking up fear amongst sections of the population.

Edit: anyhow apologies for wandering way off topic there

Edited by saabster14 on Friday 2nd December 08:18

[SilverSixer]

Deptford Draylons said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

Bit like the advisory referendum result, then.

Advisory referendum and controlled EU immigration. Genius !

Them's the facts. Boom!

I think you mean you want them to be 'facts' to back your view.
Out of interest,what was the reason you say that it is controlled in any way ? I'll leave aside what the PM said about the binding result of the referendum as you will probably go off your tits crazy about the lies during this period, although oddly its confined only to those on the side of the bus.

If it's not in this thread, it's in the other one.

What the PM said and what the law of the land, this Great Britain, says are two different things. Which has precedence in your view?

Indulge me on the immigration front. I'm interested in what control there is for an EU citizen at Calais today. Flash the passport and get in isn't what I'd call controlled. You may think it is though.

I was quite happy when parliament gave consent for a referendum to take place and the result to be binding and stated as such without any opposition at the time to that. You seem to be suggesting the PM made the biggest lie in the whole referendum when he said it was binding, article 50 would be triggered the next day and we would be out of the single market for sure.I bet you wrote here endlessly about misleading claims like this as you did about a red bus. You did do that , right ?

Yes, the PM's claims were quite evidently as misleading in this regard as was the bus. Hence the legal hullaballoo currently unfolding. Some of us noted this and warned about it before the referendum.

So which was the bigger lie ? The PM and government spending the whole referendum saying the result was binding, the UK would leave the SM, article 50 would be triggered the next day, there would be an economic crash immediately after the result, and emergency budget need, thousands of jobs lost on the result. Or was it the cross party group of people saying they wanted to see £350m wasted on the NHS ?

You were ahead of the game had you seen all that. Could you link some of your posts where you called out the government of the days as misleading the country and saying this was just an advisory vote anyway and given how parliament was so pro Remain, it hardly meant anything anyway.

So was there ever an answer to this and any evidence you yourself were warning this was, in your words, and advisory referendum ?
I don't recall any talk on PH about this at all. All you big red bus rage people ( MrT //ajd and co ) ever mentioning it or how we were greatly mislead by the government of the day. So any of you, do feel free to answer these points, because it does look like you are rather searching around for excuses after your complacency of the leave vote.

OK, I didn't want to prolong this tedious quote fest as it's all been discussed and answered before. The 350m was the bigger lie, the fact it was advisory was pointed out here several times, as well as other places, and I CBA to root around linking posts as evidence because I CBA. It's there. The fact people didn't pay attention and the fact you don't remember it is hardly my problem.